Author Topic: A Tangent On Working Hours and Stuff Split from "All things Novel Coronavirus"  (Read 4411 times)

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Offline stellarpanther

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With all the shortages of PPE, I doubt the CAF mbr's will have the appropriate equipment when the workers don't.  I've heard a lot of PSW are refusing certain tasks, the CAF mbr's should be required to subject themselves to the same risks with the PPE either.  It's not right.

I just don't think it's the job of the CAF to working in Nursing homes.  I doubt the province will be paying for this and they are probably looking at it as free labour.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 19:20:26 by Bruce Monkhouse »

Offline stellarpanther

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Fortunately, the MND and CDS have experts with indepth knoweldge of the PPE stocks held by the CAF to draw on when they are making decisions, rather than some random dude on the internet pulling conjecture out of thin air.

You can believe what you want but there is a lot of mbr's who believe especially in the MCpl and below level that doesn't think leadership has our backs.  I'm sure this isn't new but I do think it's widespread and getting worse and I'm sure others on here have heard that before.  I'm not saying they agree with it but I'm sure they've heard it before.


Offline Jarnhamar

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You can believe what you want but there is a lot of mbr's who believe especially in the MCpl and below level that doesn't think leadership has our backs.  I'm sure this isn't new but I do think it's widespread and getting worse and I'm sure others on here have heard that before.  I'm not saying they agree with it but I'm sure they've heard it before.

Honest question. Are these members of your unit or troops on reddit?
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Online Remius

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You can believe what you want but there is a lot of mbr's who believe especially in the MCpl and below level that doesn't think leadership has our backs.  I'm sure this isn't new but I do think it's widespread and getting worse and I'm sure others on here have heard that before.  I'm not saying they agree with it but I'm sure they've heard it before.


So province asks for military assistance.  Gvt says yes and instructs military to make it happen.  What is leadership supposed to do? Say no? How do you know if that conversation didn’t already happen and now leadership is loyally executing their orders?

How do they not have our backs exactly? 
Optio

Offline NavyShooter

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You can believe what you want but there is a lot of mbr's who believe especially in the MCpl and below level that doesn't think leadership has our backs. 
Quote from: stellarpanther
I've only talked to a few people on FB and hopefully they are wrong but people have express concern
So, forgive me for doubting your sources...but in your first post quoted above you state that there is "....A LOT OF MBR'S..."
A few posts later you say "I've only talked to a few people on FB..."
So, your initial statement's validity is now drawn into question based on your own following statement.
I think you undermined your own argument - or so it would seem to me.
I appreciate you wanting to be seen to be an expert here - there are a lot of competent folks here that it's great to rub shoulders wish (so to speak) but if your core of expertise is drawn from Facebook, well, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest finding more reputable sources.
NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline stellarpanther

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So, forgive me for doubting your sources...but in your first post quoted above you state that there is "....A LOT OF MBR'S..."
A few posts later you say "I've only talked to a few people on FB..."
So, your initial statement's validity is now drawn into question based on your own following statement.
I think you undermined your own argument - or so it would seem to me.
I appreciate you wanting to be seen to be an expert here - there are a lot of competent folks here that it's great to rub shoulders wish (so to speak) but if your core of expertise is drawn from Facebook, well, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest finding more reputable sources.
NS

I'm not interested in who believes me or not, I have nothing to prove on here and repeating something I've heard from a few people doesn't require any level of expertise.  I should have been more clear though, I'm not referring to a random FB group, I'm talking about people in the CAF that I spoke with through FB.

On another topic, why am I being warned and watched now?  I said nothing wrong other than give opinions and express on here what I was told by a few others who may or may not even get sent to nursing homes.



Offline MilEME09

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I'm not interested in who believes me or not, I have nothing to prove on here and repeating something I've heard from a few people doesn't require any level of expertise.  I should have been more clear though, I'm not referring to a random FB group, I'm talking about people in the CAF that I spoke with through FB.

On another topic, why am I being warned and watched now?  I said nothing wrong other than give opinions and express on here what I was told by a few others who may or may not even get sent to nursing homes.

If you are serving, remember that making public comments that discredit the CAF and/or it's leadership is a offense. Please keep that in mind when stating an opinion of those you know on a public forum.
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Offline NavyShooter

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I'm not interested in who believes me or not, I have nothing to prove on here and repeating something I've heard from a few people doesn't require any level of expertise.  I should have been more clear though, I'm not referring to a random FB group, I'm talking about people in the CAF that I spoke with through FB.

OK....so it's not a lot, it's a few. 

Thanks for clarifying that.

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline SeaKingTacco

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I'm not interested in who believes me or not, I have nothing to prove on here and repeating something I've heard from a few people doesn't require any level of expertise.  I should have been more clear though, I'm not referring to a random FB group, I'm talking about people in the CAF that I spoke with through FB.

On another topic, why am I being warned and watched now?  I said nothing wrong other than give opinions and express on here what I was told by a few others who may or may not even get sent to nursing homes.
you can ask a moderator directly by PM if you have not been told specifically why you have a warning.

As a side note, as others have already indicated to you, there is literally no subject on Army.ca upon which you have posted where you have not found some reason to complain or to assume the worst about the entire CAF chain of command. I am not a mod, just a reader and I find your constant (and often ill-informed) rants to be tiresome.

Offline kratz

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Quote from: stellarpanther
On another topic, why am I being warned and watched now?  I said nothing wrong other than give opinions and express on here what I was told by a few others who may or may not even get sent to nursing homes.

In this situation, the staff have not issued you a warning, instead it's multiple members of the site.

When MilPoints are awarded, an option for 5% warning is available.
Once a minimum percentage is achieved, the Warning / Watched flag is automatically generated.

As it's been pointed out earlier, a Warning is not bad, if you learn from it.
Apparently, in this case, many members disagree with your assertions recently.
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Remember, this site is unofficial and privately owned. The site benefits from the presence of current members willing to answer questions.

Offline stellarpanther

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you can ask a moderator directly by PM if you have not been told specifically why you have a warning.

As a side note, as others have already indicated to you, there is literally no subject on Army.ca upon which you have posted where you have not found some reason to complain or to assume the worst about the entire CAF chain of command. I am not a mod, just a reader and I find your constant (and often ill-informed) rants to be tiresome.

That's fine if you are becoming tiresome of my posts, don't read them. I'm also not so sure they are ill-informed.  Throughout my career, I've had people question me and others in my trade about policies that they interpret differently than the fact.  Just because someone may be of a high rank doesn't mean they are right.  If I had a dollar for every time a Sr. NCO or Officer argued about a certain policy at work and was later proven to be wrong I'd be rich.  Some of them won't even believe it when you show them in black and white.  I and most mbr's in my trade get people arguing what they think the policy should be rather than what it is so I don't except that my opinions are often ill-informed.  Often what I see here is others don't necessarily agree with my opinion which is fine.



Offline daftandbarmy

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That's fine if you are becoming tiresome of my posts, don't read them. I'm also not so sure they are ill-informed.  Throughout my career, I've had people question me and others in my trade about policies that they interpret differently than the fact.  Just because someone may be of a high rank doesn't mean they are right.  If I had a dollar for every time a Sr. NCO or Officer argued about a certain policy at work and was later proven to be wrong I'd be rich.  Some of them won't even believe it when you show them in black and white.  I and most mbr's in my trade get people arguing what they think the policy should be rather than what it is so I don't except that my opinions are often ill-informed.  Often what I see here is others don't necessarily agree with my opinion which is fine.

I've been sorted out by some people on this site who are a lower rank than me, and paid attention (I think?). Leadership doesn't necessarily align with pay grades ;)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline stellarpanther

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If you are serving, remember that making public comments that discredit the CAF and/or it's leadership is a offense. Please keep that in mind when stating an opinion of those you know on a public forum.

Thank you for that reminder, I do catch myself getting carried away sometimes.  After looking at my earlier posts, I didn't use very good wording in posts but I didn't mean to come across as trashing the CAF and it's leadership. The CDS most likely wouldn't remember me considering he interacts with so many people but I've spoken to Gen Vance one on one for about 10 minutes one time when he was at CJOC waiting for his driver.  I have a lot of respect for him and think he's one of the best CDS we've had.  Not many generals or other senior officers for that matter ask Jr. ranks what their opinions are of certain topics, IMO, he's one of the few CDS's who actually is trying to make life better for the troops at all levels.

Offline Jarnhamar

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That's fine if you are becoming tiresome of my posts, don't read them. I'm also not so sure they are ill-informed.  Throughout my career, I've had people question me and others in my trade about policies that they interpret differently than the fact.  Just because someone may be of a high rank doesn't mean they are right.  If I had a dollar for every time a Sr. NCO or Officer argued about a certain policy at work and was later proven to be wrong I'd be rich.  Some of them won't even believe it when you show them in black and white.  I and most mbr's in my trade get people arguing what they think the policy should be rather than what it is so I don't except that my opinions are often ill-informed.  Often what I see here is others don't necessarily agree with my opinion which is fine.

SP you've pointed out you have an issue with the CoC, combat arms, reservists and dinosaurs. I can only recommend if you have a grievance with your former units or CoC to bring it up with them and try not to bring those grievances here.

People in your trade are awesome and can be real life savers. They also make some pretty awe-inspiring mistakes. No one is perfect.

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Offline daftandbarmy

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oops, wrong thread...
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline stellarpanther

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"Multi-Hatting Versus Specialization: There must be the avoidance of seeing military personnel as hyper-competent and multi-purpose agents which can do any task set before them, thus being used as a backstop for any and all challenging situations"

This quote explains better what I was trying to trying to say yesterday when I said we aren't janitors.  Clearly a bad choice of words on my part.

Offline stellarpanther

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SP you've pointed out you have an issue with the CoC, combat arms, reservists and dinosaurs. I can only recommend if you have a grievance with your former units or CoC to bring it up with them and try not to bring those grievances here.

People in your trade are awesome and can be real life savers. They also make some pretty awe-inspiring mistakes. No one is perfect.

I have no issues with anything you mentioned.  I do believe most reservists don't understand much about how life is or how things are done in the Reg F but that doesn't mean I have a problem with them.  The same can be said of some mbr's of combat arms units especially when they have a certain way of doing things. Places like Ottawa, Borden or Comox for example are done entirely different.  I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, just that they are often completely different.  As an example, I normally work from 0730-1530, if we are seen working past our regular hours, we are told "you don't get paid extra for staying go home, it can wait until tomorrow." That's common in a lot of places in my trade, not so much from what I've heard in places like Pet or Edmonton but a lot of places it is.  On the rare occasions that I do need to stay later because of something I started that went longer than anticipated and needs to be finished, I would be told to come in later the next day or leave earlier, normally I would just write it on the board.  From what I've heard that doesn't happen in a combat arms unit.  Doesn't mean I'm criticizing them, I'm not at all.  My guess is that if I just got assigned to work for an Infantry WO and told him that I just worked 30 minutes longer than my shift and coming in 30 minutes late because of that, he would loose his crap on me.  I'm I wrong?

Offline dangerboy

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  My guess is that if I just got assigned to work for an Infantry WO and told him that I just worked 30 minutes longer than my shift and coming in 30 minutes late because of that, he would loose his crap on me.  I'm I wrong?

I don't think loose their crap, I would think more confused.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote from: stellarpanther
My guess is that if I just got assigned to work for an Infantry WO and told him that I just worked 30 minutes longer than my shift and coming in 30 minutes late because of that, he would loose his crap on me.  I'm I wrong?

You're stereo-typing. I can't speak for everyone.  I would tell you thanks for staying late to finish the task, it looks good on your work ethic. I would then remind you that you don't decide your working hours and tell you that sometimes you may need to work extended hours but you'll see that it'll be taken into consideration and you given early days or other benefits to compensate.

I think what's working against you here is that you have an 8-4 office job mentality (as noted by you) and the military doesn't always operate that way. Infantry platoon warrants/platoon 2ICs, especially when running courses or training, don't always work 8-4. I was working on platoon admin until almost 10 pm last night, I didn't ask for the morning off.


I think some of your observations may be right, CAF members MAY have to work without PPE.

CAF members were wading in crap infested water without PPE last year.
CAF members can be ordered to take their gas mask off after a gas attack to check if the agent is gone.
CAF members can be ordered to charge into machinegun fire and take out a trench.

We're really a unique employer and it's because of that that when crap hits the fan the provincial and federal government run to us for help.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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You're stereo-typing. I can't speak for everyone.  I would tell you thanks for staying late to finish the task, it looks good on your work ethic. I would then remind you that you don't decide your working hours and tell you that sometimes you may need to work extended hours but you'll see that it'll be taken into consideration and you given early days or other benefits to compensate.

I think what's working against you here is that you have an 8-4 office job mentality (as noted by you) and the military doesn't always operate that way. Infantry platoon warrants/platoon 2ICs, especially when running courses or training, don't always work 8-4. I was working on platoon admin until almost 10 pm last night, I didn't ask for the morning off.


I think some of your observations may be right, CAF members MAY have to work without PPE.

CAF members were wading in crap infested water without PPE last year.
CAF members can be ordered to take their gas mask off after a gas attack to check if the agent is gone.
CAF members can be ordered to charge into machinegun fire and take out a trench.

We're really a unique employer and it's because of that that when crap hits the fan the provincial and federal government run to us for help.

Welcome to the Unlimited Liability Contract:

https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=128700.0
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Online mariomike

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Pretty hard to justify a Delay of Service. That was a $10 million lesson learned by our dept.

The only Refusal of Service I ever heard of, where I used to work, was when eight paramedics initiated one during the Ebola crisis.

Only the eight were involved. They lost.

The Ministry of Labour ordered them back in service.
 



« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 14:51:35 by mariomike »

Offline Haggis

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I do believe most reservists don't understand much about how life is or how things are done in the Reg F but that doesn't mean I have a problem with them.
You seem to and it's apparent that many Reg F don't understand Reserve life outside of Class B and C service.  I'm not going to go into the rather significant differences between the two as that's been beaten to death here before.

The same can be said of some mbr's of combat arms units especially when they have a certain way of doing things.
One Air Force CWO on my SLP "got it" when he noted in the mess that the reason Cbt A NCMs treated their charges differently was part of an acclimatization process for that day when s/he would have to tell soldiers to stand in an icy cold, mud filled hole in the ground and not let the enemy pass until they died.  There's no gentle way to do that so the obedience has to be immediate and unquestioning.


On the rare occasions that I do need to stay later because of something I started that went longer than anticipated and needs to be finished, I would be told to come in later the next day or leave earlier, normally I would just write it on the board.  From what I've heard that doesn't happen in a combat arms unit.
It does.  It just isn't a big deal because those leaders are practising leadership and there's no need to brag about doing one's job.

My guess is that if I just got assigned to work for an Infantry WO and told him that I just worked 30 minutes longer than my shift and coming in 30 minutes late because of that, he would loose his crap on me.
As was mentioned above, you don't set your hours of work, your supervisor does.  That's where communications is key - in advance preferably - like a phone call "Hey, WO, I worked until 1800 on urgent claims last night.  You okay if I roll in at 1000 tomorrow?  You are?  Cool, WO, thanks". Problem solved in a professional manner.
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Online CBH99

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You seem to and it's apparent that many Reg F don't understand Reserve life outside of Class B and C service.  I'm not going to go into the rather significant differences between the two as that's been beaten to death here before.
One Air Force CWO on my SLP "got it" when he noted in the mess that the reason Cbt A NCMs treated their charges differently was part of an acclimatization process for that day when s/he would have to tell soldiers to stand in an icy cold, mud filled hole in the ground and not let the enemy pass until they died.  There's no gentle way to do that so the obedience has to be immediate and unquestioning.
 It does.  It just isn't a big deal because those leaders are practising leadership and there's no need to brag about doing one's job.
 As was mentioned above, you don't set your hours of work, your supervisor does.  That's where communications is key - in advance preferably - like a phone call "Hey, WO, I worked until 1800 on urgent claims last night.  You okay if I roll in at 1000 tomorrow?  You are?  Cool, WO, thanks". Problem solved in a professional manner.


I remember in my latter 2 years, I was a platoon IC.  Our platoon commander was a civilian paramedic, and one of the nicest, most level headed guys I've had the pleasure if working with/for.  We got along well, and both agreed to simply treat our troops like professionals and adults, and not to micro-manage.  This was when the unit was fairly busy (the Afghanistan years) and the unit was busy with routine stuff, setting troops up for success on courses & pre-deployment, and we were doing a lot of community relations type stuff also.

On several occassions, both the CoC of our unit, and other units, noted how well our platoon worked together.


Guys came in a bit late to parade?  No biggie, they'd usually just text one of us first to let us know.  (We had 2 police officers, 2 corrections officers, and 3 firefighters just in our platoon alone.)  No biggie at all.  Bit of facial hair and not clean shaven?  Not a word was said by anybody, and the next day they'd be clean shaven.

Couldn't find the odd troop?  I'd check my phone, "Hey boss, vehicle techs asked for a hand outside.  Not currently doing anything.  I'll be there if ya need me."


Our platoon, and unit as a whole, was so much more productive, accomplished more in terms of self-directed learning, unit courses, etc when we simply empowered our troops with being professionals. 

Nobody likes showing up and being treated like an idiot.  "Go here, do this, do that.  Sit around until I find work for you."   That, in my opinion, is probably one of the biggest things we could fix in the reserves in regards to retention - when people feel like professionals and feel empowered to better themselves as soldiers/leaders, become motivated to pursue courses and pursue opportunities - it really changes the dynamic of the work environment in a very positive way   :2c:

(Slightly off topic, sorry - back to the thread)
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Offline stellarpanther

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You seem to and it's apparent that many Reg F don't understand Reserve life outside of Class B and C service.  I'm not going to go into the rather significant differences between the two as that's been beaten to death here before.
One Air Force CWO on my SLP "got it" when he noted in the mess that the reason Cbt A NCMs treated their charges differently was part of an acclimatization process for that day when s/he would have to tell soldiers to stand in an icy cold, mud filled hole in the ground and not let the enemy pass until they died.  There's no gentle way to do that so the obedience has to be immediate and unquestioning.
 It does.  It just isn't a big deal because those leaders are practising leadership and there's no need to brag about doing one's job.
 As was mentioned above, you don't set your hours of work, your supervisor does.  That's where communications is key - in advance preferably - like a phone call "Hey, WO, I worked until 1800 on urgent claims last night.  You okay if I roll in at 1000 tomorrow?  You are?  Cool, WO, thanks". Problem solved in a professional manner.

Sorry, I don't know how to do multiple quotes on here.  But the comment regarding the CWO, if you take someone who's spent most of their career sitting behind a desk working 8-4 on a first with everyone on a first name basis and then subject them to that, there is a good chance that person will end up on stress leave.  Not saying it's not necessary for some but not everyone has that type of mentality to be able to deal with that.
As for you mentioning that it does happen in combat arms units that's good but by saying the mbr doesn't set their hours, a lot of time they do.  Probably on the first day at many of the larger units in Ottawa who are open 0730-1600, one of the questions on the first day or even before you start will be, do you want to work 0730-1530 or 0800-1600. 

Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote from: stellarpanther
there is a good chance that person will end up on stress leave.
That's embarrassing.
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