Author Topic: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army  (Read 2763 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,950
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,186
GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« on: April 25, 2020, 09:53:15 »
https://militaryleak.com/2020/04/25/general-dynamics-land-systems-unveils-new-light-tank/

Designed to fill the gap left when the M551 was retired, and not replaced by the cancelled M8 AGS program. Details in the article, if it is accepted, I foresee videos on YouTube within a year of a failed paradrop.
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline tomahawk6

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 121,755
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,458
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2020, 13:48:36 »
There isn't a lot of support for a light tank so don't be surprised when this program is quietly shelved.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 272,175
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,225
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2020, 15:04:09 »
I tend to agree. The only place where I see a need for a lighter direct fire support vehicle is within the Stryker BCT cavalry squadron for the reconnaissance support roles to which the MGS has been relegated to. The MGS, notwithstanding its weaknesses, may even be a more suitable piece of equipment because the squadrons won't try to use an MGS as a mini-tank (not to mention its maintenance compatibility with the rest of the vehicles in the SBCT).

There really is not role for this vehicle in an ABCTs and I seriously wonder if it fits into the role that the IBCTs have. On top of that I don't see this as a priority item under the Army's Big Six program so it's chances are slim at best.

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline GR66

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 63,650
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2020, 15:09:56 »
I'm thinking it's maybe intended more to provide support for the Airborne and Air Mobile IBCT's?

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,950
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,186
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2020, 15:28:07 »
I'm thinking it's maybe intended more to provide support for the Airborne and Air Mobile IBCT's?

Yes it is suppose to  be an air mobile tank, to provide support for US airborne units.
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 272,175
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,225
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2020, 15:32:15 »
I'm thinking it's maybe intended more to provide support for the Airborne and Air Mobile IBCT's?

True enough although an IBCT is an IBCT. It's just how they are delivered and the amount of ammo reloads they can carry. Quite frankly for the weight of one of these tanks you could deliver/carry etc a whole hockey sock full of mortar and anti-tank reloads which might be of a lot more use to an IBCT than a light tank that only weighs 38 tons and which, while almost twice as heavy as the MGS (and accordingly better armoured) is some 22 to 35 tons less than an M1 (depending on model and accordingly significantly less protected)

I don't want to judge the vehicle and its purpose based on this short article but it strikes me that this vehicle is undoubtedly very vulnerable to many of the OPFOR light-weight, infantry-borne, anti-armour weapons that proliferate these days. Since an IBCT offers none of the protective capabilities that Bradley mounted armoured infantry and armoured artillery do when accompanying M1 tanks I really wonder under what tactical circumstances you would employ one of these things.

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 216,965
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,977
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2020, 16:37:13 »
Quote
The MPF light tanks would provide the firepower to breach heavily-fortified defensive positions, potentially in an area, such as Russian and Chinese anti-access zones, where the U.S. might not be able to achieve absolute air superiority.

To me it sounds to me as if it is intended to be used in the same manner as one of these (Stug IV)




It is unfortunate that it looks like a tank.  An up-engineered MGS might be a better solution for the intended task.

BAE is offering an up-engineered M8 AGS - which also looks like a tank.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23455/bae-us-armys-light-tank-program/
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 305,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,822
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2020, 17:41:46 »
To me it sounds to me as if it is intended to be used in the same manner as one of these (Stug IV)




It is unfortunate that it looks like a tank.  An up-engineered MGS might be a better solution for the intended task.

BAE is offering an up-engineered M8 AGS - which also looks like a tank.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23455/bae-us-armys-light-tank-program/

A 'light' tank to breach 'heavy' defenses.. does anyone see the problem with that? Anyone?
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 272,175
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,225
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2020, 17:49:23 »
A 'light' tank to breach 'heavy' defenses.. does anyone see the problem with that? Anyone?

Ooh! Ooh! Ask me! Ask me!  :blah:

 ;D
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 305,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,822
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2020, 17:52:21 »
Ooh! Ooh! Ask me! Ask me!  :blah:

 ;D

No chance... you always have your hand up at the back of the room!

It's a dumb idea. If you want to breach heavy defenses, get heavier artillery plus some fearsome Assault Engineer resources. And lots and lots of Infantry....

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Rifleman62

    Retired.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 100,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,207
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2020, 18:12:05 »
".... fearsome Assault Engineer resources...." , The Forlorn Hope.
Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 272,175
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,225
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2020, 19:02:33 »
No chance... you always have your hand up at the back of the room!

It's a dumb idea. If you want to breach heavy defenses, get heavier artillery plus some fearsome Assault Engineer resources. And lots and lots of Infantry....

An oldie but a goodie:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOS-1

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,950
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,186
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 166,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,290
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2020, 20:01:23 »
I have wondered if a Centauro turret could be fitted to a modified LAV chassis? That would give them roughly the same effect without adding more types and solve most of the MGS issues.

Offline tomahawk6

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 121,755
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,458
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2020, 21:20:17 »
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 21:25:29 by tomahawk6 »

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 166,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,290
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2020, 22:07:57 »
It would be cheaper to buy them from the Russians along with a mountain of spare parts.

Offline Target Up

    ........pull, patch, and score.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 249,185
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,121
  • that's how we roll in redneck land
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2020, 15:20:10 »
It would be cheaper to buy them from the Russians along with a mountain of spare parts.

... because you're really going to need them.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 195,506
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,322
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2020, 19:37:28 »
So....the question in my mind is, what's the intended role? 

The air-portable with 2x fitting in a heavy lifter seems to be a key consideration (though I don't see the exact contractual clause list to see what the 'must haves' are) so I am inferring that the goal is to be able to get some 'heavy' stuff in quicker in support of deployed operations.

Example - I think it was the 82nd Airborne div that responded in 1991 as a part of Desert Shield.   About all they had that could stop a tank was the M47 Dragon Anti-Tank rocket.  If the Iraqi Army had decided to push through them - they would have been hard pressed to hold the line.

If they had been able to fly in a battalion's worth of 'light tanks' (note - these seem to be about 2/3 the size/weight of an Abrams) they'd have been, well, a slightly bigger speedbump. 

It's not an Abrams - but the Abrams is almost at the point where the only way to move it is by ship or rail - the latest versions of it you can still (I think) move by C-5, but only one at a time.

If you need troops, with some tanks (and the firepower/resiliency that they bring) then this is a good way to get a few on the ground quickly to form that speedbump.

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Online PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 944,080
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,655
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2020, 19:56:41 »
82 Airborne Div can deploy a BCT (3000 pers) to Kuwait in 18 hours though. I think we'd be hard pressed to get just a single C-17 there in that time frame.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 310,080
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,628
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2020, 20:12:35 »
So....the question in my mind is, what's the intended role? 

The air-portable with 2x fitting in a heavy lifter seems to be a key consideration (though I don't see the exact contractual clause list to see what the 'must haves' are) so I am inferring that the goal is to be able to get some 'heavy' stuff in quicker in support of deployed operations.

Example - I think it was the 82nd Airborne div that responded in 1991 as a part of Desert Shield.   About all they had that could stop a tank was the M47 Dragon Anti-Tank rocket.  If the Iraqi Army had decided to push through them - they would have been hard pressed to hold the line.

If they had been able to fly in a battalion's worth of 'light tanks' (note - these seem to be about 2/3 the size/weight of an Abrams) they'd have been, well, a slightly bigger speedbump. 

It's not an Abrams - but the Abrams is almost at the point where the only way to move it is by ship or rail - the latest versions of it you can still (I think) move by C-5, but only one at a time.

If you need troops, with some tanks (and the firepower/resiliency that they bring) then this is a good way to get a few on the ground quickly to form that speedbump.

NS

I don't think it's intended to do much in a surge capacity against a peer or near-peer adversary, but if you have a less capable national power threatening some of your key interests, the ability to, say, seize an airfield and then put a bunch of these on the ground alongside infantry and under your own airpower would be compelling.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 305,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,822
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2020, 20:39:01 »
I don't think it's intended to do much in a surge capacity against a peer or near-peer adversary, but if you have a less capable national power threatening some of your key interests, the ability to, say, seize an airfield and then put a bunch of these on the ground alongside infantry and under your own airpower would be compelling.

We practised that kind of operation alot in 5 AB Bde, practising for the likelihood of a 'Kolwezi II' type SPE/NEO operation.

The 'light tanks' were CVR (T), LAPESd in by C-130. It worked great, mainly because we could take the pish out of the plummy Blues and Royals' accents :).
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Infanteer

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 194,355
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,661
  • Honey Badger FTW!
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2020, 21:26:58 »
This has been an element of the medium holy grail for about three to four decades now.

Recommend looking at RAND's Lightning Over Water study as a good primer to understand the essence of what the U.S. is looking for.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1196.html

As well, the role of French light armour in Op SERVAL resonates with this outlook.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR770.html


"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Tango2Bravo

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 53,310
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,836
  • All your base are belong to us.
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2020, 15:23:10 »
I enjoy how they talk about operating in a Chinese or Russian Anti-Access/Area Denial (AAAD). Seems to be the latest jargon to try and get something through Congress or shoot down some other Service's program.

Let's say we accept that premise - how do you get those things into the theatre if the AAAD is so good? So you can get a C17 in there with these things, but nothing else?  :orly:
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 166,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,290
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2020, 17:01:54 »
... because you're really going to need them.

At least they actual get them into service instead of spending oodles of money with nothing to show for 20 years worth of effort.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 272,175
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,225
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: GDLS unveils new light tank for US army
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2020, 17:38:49 »
I enjoy how they talk about operating in a Chinese or Russian Anti-Access/Area Denial (AAAD). Seems to be the latest jargon to try and get something through Congress or shoot down some other Service's program.

Let's say we accept that premise - how do you get those things into the theatre if the AAAD is so good? So you can get a C17 in there with these things, but nothing else?  :orly:

That! Is right the question! - That's the one that Multi-Domain Operations and all its derivatives are trying to answer. Big, big work-in-progress.  RIP Air Land Battle. RIP Air Sea Battle. Long live MDO.

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/