Author Topic: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling  (Read 13025 times)

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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2020, 12:34:40 »

  Multiple media outlets and investigators have reported that Blake was armed with a knife and that a knife was recovered at the scene.  Video footage shows Blake carrying an object in his hand prior to being shot.


All of the information I've received from the media is saying that he had a knife hidden under a floor mat. Do you have a link for the story that he had something in his hand.

I'm interested in pursuing the question with you in a polite manner.
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2020, 13:01:21 »
All of the information I've received from the media is saying that he had a knife hidden under a floor mat. Do you have a link for the story that he had something in his hand.

I'm interested in pursuing the question with you in a polite manner.

This is why cops don't let you get back in your vehicle without permission. The price has already been paid in the blood of police officers. Whether or not there is even a knife is irrelevant. Cars are a weapon, guns are a weapon, knives are a weapon. You don't know what they have and what they are going to do, and it isn't up to them to die to find out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mssNOhv1UMc


Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2020, 13:19:36 »
This is why cops don't let you get back in your vehicle without permission. The price has already been paid in the blood of police officers. Whether or not there is even a knife is irrelevant. Cars are a weapon, guns are a weapon, knives are a weapon. You don't know what they have and what they are going to do, and it isn't up to them to die to find out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mssNOhv1UMc

I watched your video and the one that followed it. off topic: I'm opposed to capital punishment.

back on topic: He was a white man and so the protracted reluctance to use deadly force. Not to minimize the danger to police officers or to fail to understand your point.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2020, 13:36:43 »
I watched your video and the one that followed it. off topic: I'm opposed to capital punishment.

back on topic: He was a white man and so the protracted reluctance to use deadly force. Not to minimize the danger to police officers or to fail to understand your point.

Capital punishment? What are you talking about?

Police are not required to let the other guy take the first shot or even have an opportunity to. There is no legal or moral obligation on a police officer to accept the risk of bodily harm in order to let a suspect safety resist arrest.

You’ve ignored several of my replies now. Why is that?
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2020, 13:49:41 »
Capital punishment? What are you talking about?

Check out the video that follows the first one. If it doesn't come up and deal with capital punishment related to the first video then let me know. Utube videos often play to their audience.

Quote
Police are not required to let the other guy take the first shot or even have an opportunity to. There is no legal or moral obligation on a police officer to accept the risk of bodily harm in order to let a suspect safety resist arrest.

Agreed.

Quote
You’ve ignored several of my replies now. Why is that?

 The traffic is hard to keep up with but I find that there are usually two or three members that are replying the same and so I'll attempt to answer just one. Sorry if I've missed something important to you.

 :cheers:

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2020, 13:52:18 »
Capital punishment? What are you talking about?


Seems like part of a game doesn't it?

The best interrogators I've seen aren't the mean phone book to your face types. They're the polite amiable, slightly awkward ones who draw you into a conversation by making mistakes and drawing on your natural inclination to correct said obvious mistakes. Playing the fool so to speak. Throw in some random questions, comments or topics so their intentions don't seem obvious.

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Offline Brihard

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2020, 13:53:30 »
Check out the video that follows the first one. If it doesn't come up and deal with capital punishment related to the first video then let me know. Utube videos often play to their audience.

Agreed.

 The traffic is hard to keep up with but I find that there are usually two or three members that are replying the same and so I'll attempt to answer just one. Sorry if I've missed something important to you.

 :cheers:

No, the conversation’s on police use of force, not randomly queued videos in YouTube. I’ll pass, thanks.

You’re all over the place here, but what’s consistent is that your understanding of the law underpinning police use of force on both sides of the border is lacking. I laid out my objections with a fair bit of detail a few posts up and referred to one court case in Canada that’s quite informative.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2020, 14:44:44 »
No, the conversation’s on police use of force, not randomly queued videos in YouTube. I’ll pass, thanks.

You’re all over the place here, but what’s consistent is that your understanding of the law underpinning police use of force on both sides of the border is lacking. I laid out my objections with a fair bit of detail a few posts up and referred to one court case in Canada that’s quite informative.

Just two points to make with you Brihard.
1. Police use of deadly force in the US is far out of proportion to that in Canada.
2. The contrast between the use of deadly force on black people in America to white people has been amply illustrated here.

 :cheers:
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2020, 15:03:22 »
Just two points to make with you Brihard.
1. Police use of deadly force in the US is far out of proportion to that in Canada.
2. The contrast between the use of deadly force on black people in America to white people has been amply illustrated here.

 :cheers:

1.  Is that one of your opinions Donald, or are the reference figures to support your statement?

2.  Amply?  In any detail?  Proportional? Absolute?  Just what it appears media covers?

:cheers:

Offline Brihard

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2020, 15:24:03 »
Just two points to make with you Brihard.
1. Police use of deadly force in the US is far out of proportion to that in Canada.
2. The contrast between the use of deadly force on black people in America to white people has been amply illustrated here.

 :cheers:

You shifted several times to talking about Canada. That’s what I replied to.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Haggis

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2020, 19:39:37 »

1. Police use of deadly force in the US is far out of proportion to that in Canada.

The use of deadly force against police is out of proportion in the US as well.  Thanks to their Second Amendment, a police officer has to assume that every US citizen they encounter may be armed as of right.

2. The contrast between the use of deadly force on black people in America to white people has been amply illustrated here.

Actually, statistics paint a different picture with more Whites being killed by police than Blacks over the past three years.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 20:07:40 by Haggis »
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2020, 19:43:36 »
Actually, r statistics paint a different picture with more Whites being killed by police than Blacks over the past three years.

 :cheers:

That stat is overall, not per capita. As whites vastly outnumber blacks in the States, when you look at that on a per capita basis, blacks are far more likely to be shot by police than Whites.

I’m not opining as to why that’s the case, nor on whether there’s disproportionality on justified shoots, merely pointing out that in terms of who as an individual is more likely to be shot by police, that’s skews heavily against the black population.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Haggis

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2020, 19:58:16 »
That stat is overall, not per capita. As whites vastly outnumber blacks in the States, when you look at that on a per capita basis, blacks are far more likely to be shot by police than Whites.

A good point, Brihard, which adds context that I should have included.

I’m not opining as to why that’s the case, nor on whether there’s disproportionality on justified shoots, merely pointing out that in terms of who as an individual is more likely to be shot by police, that’s skews heavily against the black population.

The problem being faced now is that so many officer involved shootings with a Black victim are deemed unjustified by the press, public and politicians that it may lead to more LEO deaths as LEOs become even more reluctant to use lethal force for fear of losing their livelihoods and/or freedom.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2020, 20:57:14 »
That stat is overall, not per capita. As whites vastly outnumber blacks in the States, when you look at that on a per capita basis, blacks are far more likely to be shot by police than Whites.

I’m not opining as to why that’s the case, nor on whether there’s disproportionality on justified shoots, merely pointing out that in terms of who as an individual is more likely to be shot by police, that’s skews heavily against the black population.

Do you happen to know what race is responsible for the most shootings of cops in the US? I wasn't able to find any stats on it.
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2020, 21:02:25 »
That stat is overall, not per capita. As whites vastly outnumber blacks in the States, when you look at that on a per capita basis, blacks are far more likely to be shot by police than Whites.

I’m not opining as to why that’s the case, nor on whether there’s disproportionality on justified shoots, merely pointing out that in terms of who as an individual is more likely to be shot by police, that’s skews heavily against the black population.

Maybe proportionaly they are up to no good more so than the whites.......
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2020, 00:50:33 »
Maybe proportionaly they are up to no good more so than the whites.......

That is a really hard one to prove.  If you use evidence from police arrests, one could easily argue that the difference in arrests between black/white is due to a systemic race bias. 

Offline Brihard

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2020, 01:16:52 »
Do you happen to know what race is responsible for the most shootings of cops in the US? I wasn't able to find any stats on it.

Washington Post has it as black offenders slightly more frequently than white. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/ What I don't have at hand as a denominator is how frequently police interact with any given race, which would be necessary statistical context on that one.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2020, 10:13:04 »
That is a really hard one to prove.  If you use evidence from police arrests, one could easily argue that the difference in arrests between black/white is due to a systemic race bias.

That's true.

I believe Hispanics have larger numbers in the US than African Americans. 52 million compared to 37 million so.

It looks like Hispanics are shot by police about half as much as African Americans.  In 2019 it looks like it was 158 to 235.

Would that suggest the systemic racism in the US is more anti-black than anti-nonwhite?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 10:51:40 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2020, 10:52:12 »
Quote from: Brihard
What I don't have at hand as a denominator is how frequently police interact with any given race, which would be necessary statistical context on that one.

Thanks, good point.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2020, 11:13:52 »
FWIW, one thing I recall from my Criminology courses was that crime rates are generally falling, because the population is aging was one main reasons, and that public perceptions of crime are often at odds with the statistics. I assume that social- and other - media can fan those flames at will:

5 facts about crime in the U.S.

Public perceptions about crime in the U.S. often don’t align with the data. Opinion surveys regularly find that Americans believe crime is up nationally, even when the data shows it is down. In 18 of 22 Gallup surveys conducted between 1993 and 2018, at least six-in-ten Americans said there was more crime in the U.S. compared with the year before, despite the generally downward trend in national violent and property crime rates during most of that period.

Pew Research Center surveys have found a similar pattern. In a survey in late 2016, for instance, 57% of registered voters said crime in the U.S. had gotten worse since 2008, even though FBI and BJS data shows that violent and property crime rates declined by double-digit percentages during that span.

While perceptions of rising crime at the national level are common, fewer Americans tend to say crime is up when asked about the local level. In all 21 Gallup surveys that have included the question since 1996, no more than about half of Americans have said crime is up in their area compared with the year before.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2020, 11:14:34 »
That is a really hard one to prove.  If you use evidence from police arrests, one could easily argue that the difference in arrests between black/white is due to a systemic race bias.

The difference in violent crime wouldn't be due to race bias...

Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2020, 13:34:55 »


2.  Amply?  In any detail?  Proportional? Absolute?  Just what it appears media covers?

:cheers:

No Good3Golf, I was referring to the video that was offered up by Eagleford in comment #26 which shows the protracted reluctance by the officer to use deadly force, and that cost him his life. The stark contrast is in how black people aren't given the opportunity to do any bargaining with a police officer. This is to explain my comment of 'Amply'.

One factor that hasn't been discussed here on this thread yet is: America has created a situation in which inequitable treatment of black people has created a deep and apparently unsolvable problem. (this is a proposal from me to invite rational discussion)

If I may, I will equate that problem to Canada's perceived problem with our First Nations people. Many choose to blame them, as opposed to accepting our blame for government historically creating the problem.

Please keep in mind that is my opinion and it's likely a more leftist opinion than is usually voiced. As with so many people who are under the opinion that America's black people are to blame, the parallel is drawn with Canada's First Nations people.

 :cheers:
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2020, 13:54:36 »
Everyone is given a chance to bargain....some chose to and some dont
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2020, 14:00:29 »
The difference in violent crime wouldn't be due to race bias...

But the difference in police contact (frequency, intensity) may be due to race bias. 

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
Quote
Risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race–ethnicity, and sex

Abstract
We use data on police-involved deaths to estimate how the risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States varies across social groups. We estimate the lifetime and age-specific risks of being killed by police by race and sex. We also provide estimates of the proportion of all deaths accounted for by police use of force. We find that African American men and women, American Indian/Alaska Native men and women, and Latino men face higher lifetime risk of being killed by police than do their white peers. We find that Latina women and Asian/Pacific Islander men and women face lower risk of being killed by police than do their white peers. Risk is highest for black men, who (at current levels of risk) face about a 1 in 1,000 chance of being killed by police over the life course. The average lifetime odds of being killed by police are about 1 in 2,000 for men and about 1 in 33,000 for women. Risk peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for all groups. For young men of color, police use of force is among the leading causes of death.

. . .
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2020, 14:01:09 »
If I may, I will equate that problem to Canada's perceived problem with our First Nations people. Many choose to blame them, as opposed to accepting our blame for government historically creating the problem.

This is a good point, DonaldH, but then the follow-up needs to be addressed as well, ie.  'so what do we (society) do about it, to resolve the issue?'

Regards