Author Topic: More "Army" in Army Cadets (combat training, etc.)  (Read 78564 times)

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Sgt O`Hara

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More "Army" in Army Cadets (combat training, etc.)
« on: April 15, 2004, 14:00:00 »
I am writing this to ask about wether cadets in canada would like to do more combat traing,I mean like shooting higher caliber weapons and do war game type exercises cause the cadet system is turnin in to a bunch of pussies unlike how we used to be years ago...
So i want a reply on your thoughts on wether a petition should be started on this because if we get enugh cadets to sign yes to it the commitee has to consider it. I talked to a Brig. General (Kilby) and he is on the comitee and he said a bunch of the people on the comitee would say yes to it but we have to get signatures so please reply to this.

Thank you.
Sgt.O‘Hara
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casey916

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2004, 14:44:00 »
I don‘t think cadets should be doing combat training.  First of all, if you happen to look at the three (3) roles of the CCM, you will see that it implies nothing about combat training.  The basic aim of the movement is to give teens life skills (ie.  finding themselves, learning leadership roles, teamwork, and such)  Secondly, I have trained with guys that are no where near physically nor mentally capable of being put into situations like that.  And lastly I don‘t think the parent of a 14 year old would love having there son or daughter come home and tell them they are doing combat training as a cadet.  I suspect the numbers would decline in the CCM.  I was a cadet for 7 years, and I don‘t feel that it should be there.
The reason the combat training came out of the system is because it was not seen fit for teenagers to do, that and there were to many training accidents.

D-n-A

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2004, 16:46:00 »
no

why, whats the point, there kids, kids dont goto war

Cadets have no need to do any sort of combat training, this stuff is left up to the real soldiers


also, think about the liability, having young kids doing this sort of thing

Offline Gibson

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2004, 19:14:00 »
Having been a cadet I think there is no problem with "stimulating" an interest in the CF.  Learn how to build shelters, first aid, etc in a military environment.  The last thing they need however is training of the combat sort.  In my opinion there are enough wannabes as it is.

Don‘t get me wrong, a challenge is always good.  But you can do that without parents learning their kids are being taught how to shoot someone.

Offline aspiring officer

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2004, 00:32:00 »
oops! double post

Offline aspiring officer

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2004, 00:33:00 »
The UN and international treaty does not allow children to be recruited or trained as soldiers. Combat training would be classified as soldiering.

In this case, children are anyone under the age of 18 if conscripted or 16 if volunteered.

Since Canada is part of the UN and has signed the treaty, we‘re not gonna get any kind of combat training. There‘s no point in starting the petition. I sure wouldn‘t waste my precious ink and paper.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2004, 01:45:00 »
Keep the combat trg out of cadets. One can learn competition, team work, leadership, and discipline by other methods. There is plenty more to do in the Fd than advance to contact.

I am in favour of competition shooting though.


Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2004, 02:05:00 »
Quote
the cadet system is turnin in to a bunch of pussies unlike how we used to be years ago...
So what were you guys before, snake-eaters?

"Combat training" requires prior "combat indoctrination" (as much as the CF ignores the fact).  This is something that you are unable to give to kids who just want to do something with their spare time.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2004, 03:38:00 »
Good post Inf!

Cheers and beers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline McBear

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2004, 09:17:00 »
Simply put, I agree. Im not going to even try and sound as though I have such experience, but from just three weeks of only a taste of combat training on Maple Leaf exchange 2 years ago, Ive come to realise that there is no way you can throw a 12-14 yr old child into a man‘s world and expect good results. Some kids can handle growing up too fast,but whether they turn out ok or not they will always have that lingering sadness/depression about not having the oppurtunity to have experience their teenage years properly. Granted, they will experience those years with other teens, but those other teens would more than likely be in the same situation as them. It‘s too much of a risk for a child/young man-woman who‘s still growing and developing.

 Im quite sure that there would be excellent results if the instructors would be actual NCO‘s(because i wouldn‘t trust a 15 yr old to lead an attack, patrol etc.), but then you would have such problems resulting from this as manpower shortages - as if there aren‘t already. By the time you are considered old enough to train for combat, you may as well join the reserves if your craving for adventure is so great that it completely overwhelms the sense of satisfaction you (I) get from developing 12-17 yr olds into thoughtful, professional, knowledgeable young men & ladies, while still giving them the chance to experience adventure.

Even having a split program ( ex:beginning training at 16) It would be pointless to train them, as they can simply join the reserves and be actual soldiers.

Im not completely against the idea, though. I regard the UK‘s Army Cadet Force and Combined Cadet Force very highly. I believe that if Canada could find some middle ground between the two organisations, it would be a substantial improvement.
James
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Offline Gibson

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2004, 12:29:00 »
So your saying because there isn‘t combat training in Army cadets there is no point to Army cadets?  Cadets and scouts are entirely different organizations.  It is ok to have more than one young organization in the country, it isn‘t illegal.

Offline mandal

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2004, 13:15:00 »
I am all for it! That would be so amazing.
Mandal

Offline McBear

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2004, 15:53:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Intelligere:
[qb] Gosh, I see I‘m in a minority on this one too.  May be you guys are right, and we should take the Army out of Army Cadets.  The original question was about "like shooting higher caliber weapons and do[ing] war game type exercises".  For want of a better term, this was described as "combat training".  I guess shooting anything bigger than an air rifle, or learning proper voice procedure on actual military radios would be too advanced for cadets.  Maybe the cadets should just compete directly with Scouts Canada for recruits.  After all, there isn‘t much difference between Cadets Caring For Canada and ScoutTrees.  They‘re both good old citizenship training, aren‘t they! [/qb]
Army cadets are given a familiarization shoot on the C7 once a year (25 rounds ). This doesn‘t include the various rifles fired on the marksmanship courses at Connaught, but you‘d have to ask someone else about the specifics on the rifles used; Im not a great shooter myself. Radio procedures are taught.

Im not sure how aware you are of the program nowadays, but much has changed. I know you were an instructor back in the 70‘s. However, the system and the direction has changed, resulting in changes in the staff as well. Many hold full time jobs or have families, or both. On top of this, most Corps are situated in rural areas, far from armouries where they would be able to learn combat-related training. How would they be able to train, on weekends like the reserves? (not to diminish the reserves in any way-just a comparison)

One could haughtily argue that "Well, they musn‘t be devoted enough, then." Well, besides being absolute rubbish, being alone as a child or losing income/employment isn‘t the happiest thing in the world, and all parties involved lose.

If we try the summer training-only way, then you‘re just asking for lower standards. How would the staff be able to keep their skills sharp throughout the year?

That‘s officers only. What would we do about training seniors with all the conditions above? Even in a hypothetical situation where a corps is near an armoury, there‘s always the possibility that the affiliated unit isn‘t supportive at all.

I don‘t believe that there is a problem with the "army" in army cadets; it‘s just a matter of ensuring that the training is properly taught. We could complain all we want that we should be doing patrols and so on, but how can we send the kids out on a patrol if they can‘t even pack a ruck properly?
James
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2004, 16:06:00 »
Air rifles.

The main reason they were introduced was the indoor ranges were inadequate in lead fumes extration, as tests on random cadets proved that lead levels were too high. So instead of spending tonnes of dosh (money) on remodelling indoor small bore ranges, they went to air rifles.

Back in 92, I was a test guinea pig for this, and all these gurus from 15 Wg, MJ came out on day, and hooked up all this test gear to me. little pumps and filkteres etc, and for a few hrs on a Monday afternoon, we spent shooting 9mm until they got their info.

The Regina Armouries got better ventilation, but over all, it was still not meeting the grade.

In the two indoor ranges, I am now told one is FATS, and the other air rifle. So it look like all live ammo is no longer used in that loc.

Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline McBear

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2004, 19:02:00 »
Double post.
James
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Offline McBear

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2004, 19:10:00 »
Heh. Sorry about that. I mistook what you said in your first post:

   
Quote
Originally posted by Intelligere:
[qb]   When I was in cadets and the CIL in the late 60‘s to mid-70‘s, we did things like fire the FN rifle.  [/qb]
as meaning that you had been in at that time only, and no longer were in. My apologies, sir    :salute:    

I believe, however, that we may very well be arguing the same side of this debate!

Now, this is an excellent topic, and we‘ve already had a discussion about what needs to be fixed in cadets (in our opinions) in another thread. But this an excellent thread, and it brings about a good conversation (which is rarely seen in this area of the forum, unfortunately).

So, my question is: If we were to change the program to include more military training, what could be done? Also, could we have ideas of what military (not combat) training would be considered?


now taking bets on how long this thread will last before becoming degrading....     :dontpanic:
James
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Offline McBear

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2004, 19:14:00 »
Okay...Im just very tired and not paying attention  :rolleyes:  . Is this the first time someone has done a triple post?
James
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cdhoult

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2004, 01:13:00 »
Of course, like all threads, I need to throw in my 2 cents...

We must never lose site of one thing....cadets IS a ‘youth organization‘. Boy Scouts is a TYPE of ‘youth organization‘, but it isn‘t the definition.

As stated above, the direction of the movement has changed. We are stimulating an interest in the forces through different means, and while it is a aim, it isn‘t drilled into cadets heads, "HEY, JOIN THE FORCES!". For the percentage of cadets that go on (I‘m not actually sure what it is, I‘d be curious to know) I don‘t see it being worth it to combat train cadets, as if they were combat trained (or exposed to a more ‘military training‘ atmosphere), what is the upside? Would they be exempt from training? Would it just be a few classes, or entire courses? As the age for many of the courses would have to be older anyway (14 year olds on a BMQ type course? Not likely), it seems redundant, as they could go and join the reserves.

As also mentioned, many units are in rural areas, and turn into ‘Ma and Pa‘ operations, where some poor parent got conned into being the CO of a unit...how would they teach this training? When would they learn themselves?

The reason (in my opinion) that this issue is raised more in Army Cadets than it‘s respective counterparts, is because the Sea/Air Cadets have ‘shiny‘ things.

For example, the Sea Cadets have their YAG‘s (75 foot vessels), tallships, and CYA (Canadian Yachting Association) training, and can regularly be seen learning to sail, or learning seamanship. Does this have ANYTHING to do with the Reg Force Navy? Well, no more than working on a Yacht has to do with it....the Engineers, of which 16 are trained annually, get their class ‘a‘(?) ticket, which is transferable to the CF (in all fairness, the army cadets can get their wings).

Air cadets, of course, get to fly, and can wear their wings on the CIC Uniform. While more are trained and awarded their wings annually than sea/army get their CF qual, it‘s none the less very related to their element. Is it ‘military training‘? No, not really...you can get the same lisence in the civvie world.

The problem is that all the ‘purple‘ training (Drill, leadership, IT, OAT, etc) is taught to all elements. This makes the army cadets lose some ‘uniqueness‘, and being someone that has been in both systems (Sea/Army), the army system has a much more intense citizenship/OAT sections, but it isn‘t seen as ‘unique‘, because well, the other elements have the same sections.

Even at HQ, it isn‘t ACO(Army), the position is ACO(Land)...but ‘Land Cadets‘ would sound weird....But does anyone at least see the point I‘m attempting to make?

Trianing is what you make of it...the Army System has an awesome training program that meets the aim of the cadet movement quite adequetley....

CH

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2004, 12:20:00 »
Not going to get into this other than to say, stop comparing it to "BOY" Scouts.  The Boy Scouts have not existed for about 14 years when they decided to go co-ed. It is just Scouts.  Thank you it is just a pet peeve of mine.

Offline NormR

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2004, 13:35:00 »
This Topic is interesting and has become more so... and this is just a sidebar to the original question but it also will answer the question ... Just read...
Is there a difference between Army cadets and Scouts?  
Right now I would say yes and No... Why??? well the funny thing is .. is that Scouts are out there doing the same stuff Army cadets do and often at the same intensity...
I am talking about
- exercises in all  weather including patrols(Hiking)outdoor weekends (camping)
- ranger type projects such as rope work and bridge building, navigation by map and Compass
- citzenship
- team work
etc.
Now I know there are many of you who will disagree... and I am not an Army cadet expert.. I only have about 1 year in as a CI but I do have over 17 years with the Scouting movement... I joined up because Army cadets was the closet one to the Scouting program but had a military basis.. But I will agree there needs to more Military training.. it depends on the Corps and the Officer/CI and now Parent Support committee‘s. But we are there to run a Youth type program based on Citizenship, Health & Fitness and several other factors and all are very similar to scouting except for ONE item... Exposure to the military.All things military...
So the more military we get the better off we will be in differentiating Army cadets from Scouting.
So the original question was "about whether Cadets in Canada would like to do more combat traing(Read military),I mean like shooting higher caliber weapons and do war game type exercises"...
Well in my own corp, there are senior cadet(2-3 this last spring) who were invited to go out on a Reserve Ex.with our local Regt...
The juniors are aware that this is a possibilty...Something to shoot for.
So the option is there but it also depends on the Regiment your affliated with and the initiative of both your Corp officers and the Regiments to make it happen.  So yes we do need more Military type training. The real question is what can added that will make it more military and that has been covered throughout this thread already...but to add to it...
1] more outdoor patrol type activities
2] more team building activities using military objectives to develope them
3] better communication between the corp and its affliated regiment.
4] more interaction between the corp and the regiment by having regiment members involved in Corp training exercises
5] including senior corp cadets in training ex‘s run by the regiment.
anything else please add....

Offline BeadWindow(Banned)

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2004, 17:06:00 »
Suck it up 2 more years and you can be a "real soldier" until then pretend and play nice. I know it seems as though im condescending when I talk to cadets but I was in a troop of 40 people and 5 were former cadets. Ive never met such poor recruits in my life. They though they had everything figured out and wouldnt listen to our instructors on drill or most anything. 3 went home and 1 barely passed. Attitude city.
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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2004, 17:12:00 »
Sorry WetGrunt. I guess u got the bottom of the barrel there.

Not all of us are like that, atleast i hope i wouldn‘t be. Five cadets don‘t represent the whole lot of us out there. I‘m sure there are atleast a few ex-cadets who ended up being fine soldiers.

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2004, 17:29:00 »
I have no doubt. And its all in fun.....the last one got top recruit....although the brass wanted to take t from her 3 days later because she turned into a major disciplinary problem. But she was good at drill and making her bed. As for the rest of you be content with what cadets is. Drill and uniforms and some chances to do some neat stuff. Dont try and make it something it isnt. Crawl before you walk.
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2004, 19:31:00 »
Hey Int, the times are a changing. Back in the late 60‘s and 70‘s there was no definition or even a word such as pollitically correct. Now its everywhere. Personally I find the language of political correctiveness a language of COWARDS.

I was never in any cadets, but I seen many who were that made the jump to the PRes (some also stayed in the RCACC as long as they could), and then to the Regular Force. Others (the weak and wannabees) who came accross, just fell thru the cracks and were consumed like old fire wood.

I reckon good cadets who accept the challenge of the CF during their recruit trg, would keep their mouths shut uising what ever they picked up during cadets (however small)to their advantage, and somehow assist others out within their sections who need it. Thats team work, and good coursemanship!

When I left the CF, and enlisted in the Australian Army back in Feb 1995, I kept my mouth shut, and used what I had learned over 18yrs in the CF to my advantage. Mind you I was accepted at the rank of Sergeant (which was a real eye opener - let me tell you!), and after a few months was in the thick of it doing a CLC type course in some of the worst terrain I have ever seen, all over again, which is ‘X‘ times worse than any recruit trg. I came thru it all. Better,and stronger. More educated in every sense of the word than ever.

So use what you have learned as a true advantage, if you are a braggart, or a wannabee ‘sniper‘, or have the attitude "in cadets we did it this way... etc". Dont even bother sniffing around the CFRC‘s out there.

Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2004, 19:32:00 »
You‘d know better than i would. My experience with current and former cadets has left a sour taste in my mouth. So if your old style cadets made a better individual Im all for it. If it gave dangerous skills/ and larger egos to the ones ive delt with then shelve it. But you‘d know more about this than I.
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