Author Topic: Battle Honours for Afghanistan  (Read 82502 times)

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2014, 12:01:17 »
I heard this was coming down the pike a couple of weeks ago. The criteria seems to have been that the regiment provided a significant number of personnel for service in Afghanistan. That gets pretty subjective, so I guess it's best to wait and see.

If the 'quantity' rule is used, I'm sure the units that contributed a relatively small number of troops, yet had people killed or wounded, will understand.  ::)
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Offline slayer14

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2014, 12:37:53 »
I am curious to see if out of the 63 Army regiments that are to receive theatre honours, if this includes RCHA and 5e RALC regiments.  If I am not mistaken, Queen Victoria had decided long ago that artillery regiments were to be given the holistic "Ubique" battle honour since they were essentially "everywhere" and were not going to be given theatre or battle honours.

Thoughts?

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2014, 12:52:11 »
As a gunner, I would be surprised and disappointed if any artillery units, and lets not forget 4 ADR/4 GSR, were included in the units given the theatre honours. Our battle honour is Ubique, and that goes for our friends in the engineers.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2014, 14:48:03 »
Yes, but there is a difference.  All over the place vs everywhere.
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2014, 15:09:26 »

 Ubique

(Royal Artillery)


THERE is a word you often see, pronounce it as you may
“You bike,” “you bykwee,” “ubbikwe “—alludin’ to R.A.
It serves ’Orse, Field, an’ Garrison as motto for a crest,
An’ when you’ve found out all it means I’ll tell you ’alf the rest.

Ubique means the long-range Krupp be’ind the low-range ’ill—
Ubique means you’ll pick it up an’, while you do, stand still.
Ubique means you’ve caught the flash an’ timed it by the sound.
Ubique means five gunners’ ’ash before you’ve loosed a round.

Ubique means Blue Fuse an’ make the ’ole to sink the trail.
Ubique means stand up an’ take the Mauser’s ’alf-mile ’ail.
Ubique means the crazy team not God nor man can ’old.
Ubique means that ’orse’s scream which turns your innards cold!

Ubique means “Bank, ’Olborn, Bank—a penny all the way—
The soothin’, jingle-bump-an’-clank from day to peaceful day.
Ubique means “They’ve caught De Wet, an’ now we sha’n t be long.”
Ubique means “I much regret, the beggar’s goin’ strong!”

Ubique means the tearin’ drift where, breech-blocks jammed with mud,
The khaki muzzles duck an’ lift across the khaki flood.
Ubique means the dancing plain that changes rocks to Boers.
Ubique means the mirage again an’ shellin’ all outdoors.

Ubique means “Entrain at once for Grootdefeatfontein”!
Ubique means “Off-load your guns”—at midnight in the rain!
Ubique means “More mounted men. Return all guns to store.”
Ubique means the R. A. M. R. Infantillery Corps!

Ubique means that warnin’ grunt the perished linesman knows,
When o’er ’is strung an’ sufferin’ front the shrapnel sprays ’is foes;
An’ as their firin’ dies away the ’usky whisper runs
From lips that ’ave n’t drunk all day: “The Guns! Thank Gawd, the Guns!”

Extreme, depressed, point-blank or short, end-first or any’ow,
From Colesberg Kop to Quagga’s Poort—from Ninety-Nine till now—
By what I’ve ’eard the others tell an’ I in spots ’ave seen,
There’s nothin’ this side ’Eaven or ’Ell Ubique does n’t mean!

Offline Jungle

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The difference, as I understand it, is that a theatre honour may be displayed on regimental property (signs, memorials, etc) but not on the colours.

I don't think it makes much difference; we have France and Flanders 1915-1918, Sicily 1943, Italy 1943-1945, North West Europe 1945 and Korea 1950-1953 displayed on our colours, which are theater honours, but all are called Battle Honours. It is my guess specific battle honours will follow in the future.
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Offline Infanteer

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I don't think it makes much difference; we have France and Flanders 1915-1918, Sicily 1943, Italy 1943-1945, North West Europe 1945 and Korea 1950-1953 displayed on our colours, which are theater honours, but all are called Battle Honours. It is my guess specific battle honours will follow in the future.

Those are actually campaign honours, which are a subset of battle honours (and hence displayed on the Colours).  Not knowing what sorts of Battle Honours will be awarded, it is concievable that the campaign honour of "Afghanistan 2006-2011" would be awarded to Regiments deployed at least a sub-unit or more to that mission with any specific battles also being honoured (Panjwayi?  Medusa?).

A useful read:

http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/grod_btlhnrs.htm
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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2014, 17:05:41 »
I think there should be (a) Battle Honour(s) for Afghanistan, but I'll repeat myself and say that while I do not oppose updating or Canadianizing the system for awarding such honours, I hope we keep the standards high.
 
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Offline Jungle

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Those are actually campaign honours,

Your link does not seem to make a distinction between campaign and theater honours; is there an official difference ? I think Afghanistan would qualify as a theater as well as a campaign.
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Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2014, 18:41:40 »
Unless I'm mistaken its my understanding that Honours are not granted to Branches within the CAF such as the Log Branch or MP Branch as well as organizations such as the Service Battalions and medical units?   Understanding of course that while these units, and/or persons within those trades/branches, served with distinction they are seen as being "in support" of the others.  Am I assuming correctly?

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2014, 19:14:47 »
Old Sweat: You're not the only one who can Kipple.

Sappers

When the Waters were dried an' the Earth did appear,
("It's all one," says the Sapper),
The Lord He created the Engineer,
Her Majesty's Royal Engineer,
With the rank and pay of a Sapper!

When the Flood come along for an extra monsoon,
'Twas Noah constructed the first pontoon
To the plans of Her Majesty's, etc.

But after fatigue in the wet an' the sun,
Old Noah got drunk, which he wouldn't ha' done
If he'd trained with, etc.

When the Tower o' Babel had mixed up men's bat,
Some clever civilian was managing that,
An' none of, etc.

When the Jews had a fight at the foot of a hill,
Young Joshua ordered the sun to stand still,
For he was a Captain of Engineers, etc.

When the Children of Israel made bricks without straw,
They were learnin' the regular work of our Corps,
The work of, etc.

For ever since then, if a war they would wage,
Behold us a-shinin' on history's page --
First page for, etc.

We lay down their sidings an' help 'em entrain,
An' we sweep up their mess through the bloomin' campaign,
In the style of, etc.

They send us in front with a fuse an' a mine
To blow up the gates that are rushed by the Line,
But bent by, etc.

They send us behind with a pick an' a spade,
To dig for the guns of a bullock-brigade
Which has asked for, etc.

We work under escort in trousers and shirt,
An' the heathen they plug us tail-up in the dirt,
Annoying, etc.

We blast out the rock an' we shovel the mud,
We make 'em good roads an' -- they roll down the khud,
Reporting, etc.

We make 'em their bridges, their wells, an' their huts,
An' the telegraph-wire the enemy cuts,
An' it's blamed on, etc.

An' when we return, an' from war we would cease,
They grudge us adornin' the billets of peace,
Which are kept for, etc.

We build 'em nice barracks -- they swear they are bad,
That our Colonels are Methodist, married or mad,
Insultin', etc.

They haven't no manners nor gratitude too,
For the more that we help 'em, the less will they do,
But mock at, etc.

Now the Line's but a man with a gun in his hand,
An' Cavalry's only what horses can stand,
When helped by, etc.

Artillery moves by the leave o' the ground,
But we are the men that do something all round,
For we are, etc.

I have stated it plain, an' my argument's thus
("It's all one," says the Sapper),
There's only one Corps which is perfect -- that's us;
An' they call us Her Majesty's Engineers,
Her Majesty's Royal Engineers,
With the rank and pay of a Sapper!
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Offline bigcletus

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Battle Honours
« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2014, 19:16:59 »
Does anyone have info on which units/organizations were awarded Afghanistan Battle Honours today ??  Thanks


Offline MedCorps

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2014, 19:17:50 »
Unless I'm mistaken its my understanding that Honours are not granted to Branches within the CAF such as the Log Branch or MP Branch as well as organizations such as the Service Battalions and medical units?   Understanding of course that while these units, and/or persons within those trades/branches, served with distinction they are seen as being "in support" of the others.  Am I assuming correctly?

You are correct, the RCMS is not granted battle honours.  That being said, we were given a Royal Banner from our Col-in-Chief for our service in Afghanistan this past October. 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/news/article.page?doc=colonel-in-chief-her-royal-highness-the-princess-royal-visits-the-royal-canadian-medical-service/hn4a3adw

http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/2013/10/23/princess-anne-visits-base-borden

MC

« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 21:45:36 by MedCorps »

Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: Battle Honours
« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2014, 19:36:19 »

The following units will be receiving the Theatre Honours (not Battle Honours):

ARABIAN SEA

Royal Canadian Navy Units

HMCS Algonquin

HMCS Calgary

HMCS Charlottetown

HMCS Fredericton

HMCS Halifax

HMCS Iroquois

HMCS Montréal

HMCS Ottawa

HMCS Preserver

HMCS Protecteur

HMCS Regina

HMCS St. John’s

HMCS Toronto

HMCS Vancouver

HMCS Winnipeg

AFGHANISTAN

Royal Canadian Navy Units 

Fleet Diving Unit (Atlantic)

Fleet Diving Unit (Pacific)

Canadian Army Units 

The Royal Canadian Dragoons

Lord Strathcona’s Horse (Royal Canadians)

12e Régiment blindé du Canada 1

The Governor General’s Horse Guards

The Ontario Regiment (RCAC)

The Queen’s York Rangers (1st American Regiment) (RCAC)

8th Canadian Hussars (Princess Louise’s)

1st Hussars

The Prince Edward Island Regiment (RCAC)

The Royal Canadian Hussars (Montreal)

The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught’s Own)

The South Alberta Light Horse

The Saskatchewan Dragoons

The King’s Own Calgary Regiment (RCAC)

The British Columbia Dragoons

The Fort Garry Horse

Le Régiment de Hull (RCAC)

The Windsor Regiment (RCAC)

The Royal Canadian Regiment 2

Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry

Royal 22e Régiment 3

Governor General’s Foot Guards

The Canadian Grenadier Guards

The Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada

The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada

Les Voltigeurs de Québec

The Royal Regiment of Canada

The Royal Hamilton Light Infantry (Wentworth Regiment)

The Princess of Wales’ Own Regiment

The Lincoln and Welland Regiment

The Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada

The Grey and Simcoe Foresters

The Lorne Scots (Peel, Dufferin and Halton Regiment)

The Brockville Rifles

Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders

Les Fusiliers du St-Laurent

Le Régiment de la Chaudière

Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal

The Princess Louise Fusiliers

The Royal New Brunswick Regiment

The West Nova Scotia Regiment

The Nova Scotia Highlanders

The CapeBreton Highlanders

Le Régiment de Maisonneuve

The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (Duke of Edinburgh’s Own)

The Royal Winnipeg Rifles

The Essex and Kent Scottish

48th Highlanders of Canada

Le Régiment du Saguenay

The Algonquin Regiment

The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada (Princess Louise’s)

The Lake Superior Scottish Regiment

The North Saskatchewan Regiment

The Royal Regina Rifles

The Rocky Mountain Rangers

The Loyal Edmonton Regiment (4th Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry)

The Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada

The Royal Westminster Regiment

The Calgary Highlanders

Les Fusiliers de Sherbrooke

The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada

The Canadian Scottish Regiment (Princess Mary’s)

The Royal Montreal Regiment

The Irish Regiment of Canada

The Toronto Scottish Regiment (Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother’s Own)

Royal Canadian Air Force Units 

408 Tactical Helicopter Squadron

427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron

430 Tactical Helicopter Squadron

436 Transport Squadron

Special Forces

Canadian Special Operations Regiment

1    As a regimental-level award, the theatre honour “Afghanistan” is awarded to the regiment and shared by its Regular and Reserve Force regiments
2    As a regimental-level award, the theatre honour “Afghanistan” is awarded to the regiment and shared by all of its Regular and Reserve Force battalions
3    As a regimental-level award, the theatre honour “Afghanistan” is awarded to the regiment and shared by all of its Regular and Reserve Force battalions

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Battle Honours
« Reply #114 on: May 09, 2014, 20:25:35 »
The following units will be receiving the Theatre Honours (not Battle Honours):

Even "Theatre Honours" fall under the general label of Battle Honours.

Battle Honours - Theatre, Battle, Action, Engagement

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Re: Battle Honours
« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2014, 20:38:04 »
Even "Theatre Honours" fall under the general label of Battle Honours.

Battle Honours - Theatre, Battle, Action, Engagement
All Theatre Honours are Battle Honours, but not all Battle Honours are Theatre Honours.

Thanks for this and other honours info you share - Milpoints inbound.
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Offline Brihard

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Those are actually campaign honours, which are a subset of battle honours (and hence displayed on the Colours).  Not knowing what sorts of Battle Honours will be awarded, it is concievable that the campaign honour of "Afghanistan 2006-2011" would be awarded to Regiments deployed at least a sub-unit or more to that mission with any specific battles also being honoured (Panjwayi?  Medusa?).

A useful read:

http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/grod_btlhnrs.htm

I would hope that whatever modernizing of our battle honours system occurs allows the Afghanistna theatre honour to be displayed on colours. I can think of no good reason why it ought not, and if tradition precludes it with being so, then make the call that traditions are guidance, not dogma and do it anyway.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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I would hope that whatever modernizing of our battle honours system occurs allows the Afghanistna theatre honour to be displayed on colours. I can think of no good reason why it ought not, and if tradition precludes it with being so, then make the call that traditions are guidance, not dogma and do it anyway.

There's no "tradition" that says Afghanistan would not be approved for emblazonment, we just need to see the official orders awarding it the units. The only limitation that prevents emblazonment is the restriction to no more than ten emblazoned honours for each of the World Wars.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #118 on: May 09, 2014, 21:14:04 »
The PM also announced that "Afghanistan" and the related dates would be carved into the National War Memorial.
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Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #119 on: May 09, 2014, 22:07:09 »
The PM also announced that "Afghanistan" and the related dates would be carved into the National War Memorial.

So with that having been said, what was (or will) our experience in Afghanistan be called?  Is it correct to refer to it as the Afghan War (although we were not at war with Afghanistan) the Afghanistan Conflict (kinda too mild given events that transpired), Canada's Mission in Afghanistan (not very catchy) or what?  Whats the "name" going to be or what is already accepted?

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Re: Battle Honours
« Reply #120 on: May 09, 2014, 22:45:43 »
The following units will be receiving the Theatre Honours (not Battle Honours):

Source, please?
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Offline Scoobs

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2014, 23:17:55 »
Being in the RCAF and being of Tac Hel background, frankly, if the list provided here is accurate, it amazes me that 400 and 438 Sqns are not on that list.  Last time I checked my personnel (and others from both of these Sqns) participated in Afghanistan with either the Sperwer or in support of the JTF-Afg Air Wing.  I usually remain silent, but not for this slight.  This is unsat (if the list is accurate).  Frankly put, without these two "total force" units, 1 Wg and Tac Hel would not have been able to function.  This is further emphasized when one considers what we did domestically when there was no one else left back in Canada to do it.  A little domestic op called Op PODIUM comes to mind, along with the G8 Conference (largest domestic deployments in Cdn history).  And we did this while we had pers over in Afg.

This better be fixed.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 23:21:28 by Scoobs »
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #123 on: May 09, 2014, 23:23:47 »
Being in the RCAF and being of Tac Hel background, frankly, if the list provided here is accurate, it amazes me that 400 and 438 Sqns are not on that list.  Last time I checked my personnel (and others from both of these Sqns) participated in Afghanistan with either the Sperwer or in support of the JTF-Afg Air Wing.  I usually remain silent, but not for this slight.  This is unsat (if the list is accurate).  Frankly put, without these two "total force" units, 1 Wg and Tac Hel would not have been able to function.  This goes for what we did domestically when there was no one else left back in Canada to do it.  A little domestic op called Op PODIUM comes to mind, along with the G8 Conference (largest domestic deployments in Cdn history).  And we did this while we had pers over in Afg.

This better be fixed.

There is a minimum threshold for participation required for the theatre honour.  Depending what O&E games were played along the way, it may be that certain units are not seen has having contributed the requisite minimum number because someone, somewhere, posted Bloggins MMO somewhere else immediately before the deployment, so that other unit is getting credit for his deployment.

Flag the issue through the CoC; if there are mistakes, they will be corrected.  As I recall, a few units were recently granted Boer War honours since, due to historical amalgamations of units, they now cross the thresholds required.  Hopefully, if there's a mistake with 400 and 438 it won't take over a century to correct.
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Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: Battle Honours
« Reply #124 on: May 09, 2014, 23:24:18 »
Source, please?

The list I quoted was directly from an email I recieved from the PMs office, not because I'm special but because I signed up for Public Affairs news releases on the Prime Ministers website.