Author Topic: Dress and Deportment  (Read 39815 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 226,850
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,949
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #250 on: July 21, 2019, 15:02:57 »
if you can't master the level of self-discipline needed to get a haircut or put in some effort on the drill square, why should we trust you with people or equipment?

Probably the best summary of the thread.
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,662
    • The job.
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #251 on: July 21, 2019, 15:41:31 »
Probably the best summary of the thread.

Probably not the last. :)

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 229,177
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,360
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #252 on: July 21, 2019, 16:25:14 »
Probably the best summary of the thread.

Well said
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 31,185
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 874
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #253 on: July 21, 2019, 16:28:28 »
Wow, this devolved into a pretty divided arguement.  What's wrong with the majority meeting the required standard and reserving the extra practice/level of effort for the few occasions where a much higher ceremonial guard standard is required? It's not really an all/nothing event horizon.

It's pretty easy and ingrained to do the basics, and doesn't take much effort to maintain your personal standard and put in the basic effort into your own drill movements, but group movements and parades are definitely something that takes time and practice.

Sometimes you specifically get told not to make a big deal of it and get this messed up dogs breakfast of ceremonial drill, but the orders come down from the stratosphere thinking they are doing people a favour.  In my experience those are always a nightmare, as you spend more time figuring out some half assed thing rather then just doing it by the book (which is easier because you've already spent a bunch of training time practicing it for these kind of occasions).

Personally think there is definitely value in learning drill, and it's a great tool on basic to get people used to working with their wingers, rotating people into taking charge of a small group and other really useful skills that are generally useful in any walk of life, but can be critical in military taskings.  Like anything else, builds muscle memory, so grateful that 15 years out of basic, I can still manage to bash out the fundamental movements with no real prep and doesn't take much to do it properly. It would be ugly if I got thrown into a parade position tomorrow morning and had to call out drill movements as that needs practice to maintain, but basic was also good at learning how to cover for you winger and do the movement on the right foot or whatever if they made a mistake.

Think we've generally got a pretty good balance in requiring people to maintain their own dress and deportment to the standard and find it pretty straightforward.  All professional workplaces have a standard and ours isn't particularly onerous. We give people the uniforms, and all they need to do is some basic groooming. There are some who make the arguement that "just meeting the standard" means you are a bag of hammers, which most would agree doesn't make sense. I generally don't trust anyone who consistently is unable to meet a basic dress standard, but also wonder am suspect of anyone that can remain a textbook example at all times during an extended grind where everyone is pitching in to get it done (like that one person who is suspiciously clean and comfortable after the push to get things done so you can secure the ship after coming alongside when you were landing garbage, doing repairs, cleaning stations etc).

As an aside, the argument about neatly trimmed vs daily shaving with a beard makes no sense to me. If you have a moustache, you still shave everyday, so logically follows that if you have a beard, you should still do your cheeks and neck on the daily. Not going to lose sleep over it, but a lot of Philadelphia lawyering on the go there as a result of the imprecise wording and lack of clarity, so they should probably fix that so that all units are following one standard. Enjoy the shaving routine and hate throat stubble anyway, so not a big deal for me, but seems to raise some pretty strong feelings on both sides of the divide.

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,662
    • The job.
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #254 on: July 21, 2019, 20:33:14 »
As an aside, the argument about neatly trimmed vs daily shaving with a beard makes no sense to me.

Nothing new about the Subject of this discussion. At least as far back as when I joined the PRes in 1970. No doubt, long before that.

This is new ( to me at least ),
https://navy.ca/forums/index.php?topic=129147.200
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 20:37:17 by mariomike »

Offline FSTO

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 51,820
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,852
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #255 on: July 22, 2019, 14:48:38 »
I hate the BMI; grew up being told I was dangerously underweight and unhealthy (despite doing track, rugby, heavy physical labour etc), which really helps when you are an already shy teen that lacks self confidence. It's an overly simplistic system based on weak science that is misused all the time. It only applies for a specific body type, doesn't work for anyone that is naturally wiry, heavily muscled, or other similar variations.

I assume the uniform is tailored to fit no one well; usually have to go up a few sizes of pants for it to fit on the legs, so looks wonky even after some tailoring, and the shirts aren't any better. Not sure how they manage to be hugely loose around the waist, big around the arms, but tight on the shoulders and riding up the armpits.  Their virtual models must have some really weird proportions not found in nature. The only thing consistent about them is that they never fit well.  Really weird when I can normally buy off the rack stuff no problem and not need any tailoring (with the exception of non-tapered shirts). How people look in uniform should taken with a grain of salt as they make everyone look terrible.

I picked up a sewing machine and taught myself to use it. I tailor my own shirts now but I still take my pants to a tailor to make sure they fit right around the shoes. Last year I found some Haggar Black pants at Costco and used them as my day to day pants at the office during the winter (I wear TWL exclusively during the summer months). These pants had a permanent front seam, expandable waist, wash and wear capability, and silicon seam around the waist to keep your shirt tucked in. At CANSEC last year I was at the Logistik booth and inquired as to why they haven't updated the DEU pants. Imagine my surprise when the rep said they had the same type of clothing but the CAF had never asked them to change over.
So I drafted and submitted a change to the Navy Clothing and Dress committee for said pants and I see by the latest minutes that the RCN will investigate the possibility of going to these types of pants. 

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 183,790
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,415
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #256 on: July 22, 2019, 15:07:00 »
So I drafted and submitted a change to the Navy Clothing and Dress committee for said pants and I see by the latest minutes that the RCN will investigate the possibility of going to these types of pants.

Are the elemental (and national) clothing and dress committees just for DEU or operational dress as well?  My leading question being if I thought something could be improved with operational clothing, should I submit an UCR or a change to the dress committee? 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline FSTO

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 51,820
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,852
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #257 on: July 22, 2019, 17:36:27 »
Are the elemental (and national) clothing and dress committees just for DEU or operational dress as well?  My leading question being if I thought something could be improved with operational clothing, should I submit an UCR or a change to the dress committee?

Do both is my recommendation. Whats the worst they can do to you? Mock you?

Offline Tcm621

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 13,415
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 765
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #258 on: July 22, 2019, 19:53:42 »
Your experience of international operations is vastly different from mine. Any time I have worked with NATO/Allied forces we are looked at as consummate professionals, though we are generally the oldest and least fit. I think the lest fit part is in large part because of the oldest part. We are very old as far as militaries go, but that's a topic for a different thread.

As to uniforms, I couldn't order new ones from our system because they were all out of stock.( I ordered new 3s weeks in advance, and still had to wait two weeks to get them after I arrived in Ottawa) I had to go to a Canex three hours away to get a new beret.  I shouldn't have to spend my own money for a silly hat that is supposed to be issued, but to have to go to a different base just to get one is embarrassing. So when the troops have a faded "nondescript" beret maybe they are trying, and our system is failing them. Perhaps after years of the system letting them down with uniforms many people have given up...

For those mentioning orders and fitness, I challenge you to prove that anyone you think it too fat hasn't met the required standard. If your want a "looks good in uniform" standard than that needs to be the standard.
Otherwise to quote a classic:

"What do I think? Let me tell you what I think, Stan. If you want me to wear thirty-seven pieces of flair like your pretty boy Brian over there, then why don't you just make the minimum thirty-seven pieces of flair?"




I have had the flair scene in my head this entire time. All the buttons and bows initiatives (especially the army) remind me of someone wanting more pieces of flair. I am talking about people who don't wear flair  or when they do it is a piece of old shoe they found on the ground.

We have serious issues with our supply process that is completely out of our hands so we have to do what we can with what we have.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,510
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,643
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #259 on: July 22, 2019, 20:02:04 »
I used to have to deal with some high end consulting firms, they clearly had a dress code and an expectation. I suspect much was unwritten but if you didn't play along you would very quickly get sidelined. I suspect more than a few members would be a bit shocked at the expectations that can await outside the military, particularly if you want to do something other than manual labour.

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,662
    • The job.
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #260 on: July 22, 2019, 20:41:58 »
I suspect more than a few members would be a bit shocked at the expectations that can await outside the military, particularly if you want to do something other than manual labour.

Particularly when your job involves going into homes. Likeability is 90% of the battle. Smile and a shoeshine.  :)


Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 183,790
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,415
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #261 on: July 22, 2019, 20:53:46 »
I suspect more than a few members would be a bit shocked at the expectations that can await outside the military, particularly if you want to do something other than manual labour.

When I read articles about how veterans didn't get whatever job after the interview, how much of that was them not dressing up to standard for it in the first place.  Seeing the units I've been in do Civie Fridays is...interesting.  I guess some peoples' fashion sense really don't progress once they join the CAF.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,662
    • The job.
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #262 on: July 22, 2019, 21:27:43 »
When I read articles about how veterans didn't get whatever job after the interview, how much of that was them not dressing up to standard for it in the first place. 

And, try to find out if it is the same, or different, format as your CAF interview.

Mine was an oral board ( that's a panel interview ).

It was also a "stress" type interview. They really caught me off guard.  A very unpleasant experience compared to my CAF interview.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 08:11:29 by mariomike »

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 229,177
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,360
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #263 on: July 22, 2019, 22:11:50 »
When I read articles about how veterans didn't get whatever job after the interview, how much of that was them not dressing up to standard for it in the first place.  Seeing the units I've been in do Civie Fridays is...interesting.  I guess some peoples' fashion sense really don't progress once they join the CAF.

I'm of the opinion "Civilian Fridays" should be banned outright. You're in the CAF, dress like you're in the CAF.

As for supporting the United Way the CAF should encourage those who want to contribute to go ahead, but not at the idea of paying to wear your civvies to work.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline AK

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 8,905
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 64
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #264 on: July 23, 2019, 13:42:46 »
I'm of the opinion "Civilian Fridays" should be banned outright. You're in the CAF, dress like you're in the CAF.

As for supporting the United Way the CAF should encourage those who want to contribute to go ahead, but not at the idea of paying to wear your civvies to work.

I don't have a strong opinion either way, but while it's permissible, I'll take advantage of it to motivate myself to develop a professional civilian wardrobe.  And I like to think I set a good example for my more junior personnel.

But I do prefer the optics of wearing civilian dress on those sadly rare occasions where Friday lunch at the mess extends until later in the afternoon... 

Offline stoker dave

  • New Member
  • **
  • 2,980
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 43
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #265 on: July 23, 2019, 14:22:50 »
I used to have to deal with some high end consulting firms, they clearly had a dress code and an expectation. I suspect much was unwritten but if you didn't play along you would very quickly get sidelined. I suspect more than a few members would be a bit shocked at the expectations that can await outside the military, particularly if you want to do something other than manual labour.

I work for a large engineering and construction company.  There is very much an unwritten dress code.  It kinda goes like this:

* Presidents and such:  suit or coat and tie at all times.
* Vice presidents, managers and senior technical people:  nice trousers and open neck shirt.  Even at construction sites. 
* Technical staff, middle engineers, technicians:  jeans and a nice shirt. 

The exception is any time you are meeting clients /customers (other than at a construction site) you generally move up one level.  At construction sites, jeans are ok for most but not the senior people. 

I will further add that compliance with construction/worker safety gear is INFLEXIBLE.  There is zero tolerance for anyone that does not wear AT ALL TIMES the correct PPE (boots, safety vest, hard hat, gloves, eye protection, hearing protection, etc. as specified) for whatever they are doing.  In general, my experience is that the 'safety culture' is much stronger in industry than at DND (but that is whole other topic). 

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 253,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,069
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #266 on: July 23, 2019, 15:11:22 »
I'm of the opinion "Civilian Fridays" should be banned outright. You're in the CAF, dress like you're in the CAF.

This.

IMHO.... If you are at 'Army' work, you need to be dressed to do 'Army' things up to and including 'closing with and destroying the enemy'. When superior Officers/ NCMs try to give orders to their subordinates while wearing LuLu Lemon slacks and loafers, I observe a mental flex to the movie 'Office Space', with the commensurate level of seriousness and respect.

Social occasions? Totally different IMHO...
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Online Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 119,750
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,553
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #267 on: July 23, 2019, 15:24:56 »
Of the three organisations I was on long term class b with 2 did not allow Civy Fridays.  One did.  One was a very public job so no go and the other required operational dress at all times ie a lot of manual work.   the other that allowed it was a office type stuff. 
Optio

Offline RomeoJuliet

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 11,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 516
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #268 on: July 25, 2019, 10:45:07 »
Speaking of dress and deportment. Does anyone in Calgary know of a local tailor that can change mess kit? Change shoulder straps, add ranks, adjust cuffs etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline CanadianTire

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,384
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 829
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #269 on: July 26, 2019, 13:56:19 »
Longest I saw was a month long practice for the Queen's visit to Halifax in the mid 80's that was a changing of colours parade.  They practiced every day from early (8 or 9) until 2200h.

That's a lot of practice! For our colour presentation we practiced almost every Wednesday evening and most (3/4) weekends from September until November. I missed portions of it as I was on course at the time (in fact I had course the following day!).

There was also practice in April and May of the preceding training year, but I was deployed at that time.
"Theirs not to reason why/Theirs but to do and die." - Tennyson

Offline Bzzliteyr

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 55,320
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,217
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #270 on: July 29, 2019, 13:41:30 »
Speaking of dress and deportment. Does anyone in Calgary know of a local tailor that can change mess kit? Change shoulder straps, add ranks, adjust cuffs etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Andy the tailor? Andy's tailor?

Something like that I hear in the office.
Adsum

UNPROFOR, CPSM, Canadian Forces Commander Land Force Command Commendation (Bosnia 1993), Canadian Decoration, General Campaign Star - ISAF

Offline RomeoJuliet

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 11,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 516
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #271 on: July 29, 2019, 14:10:02 »
Andy the tailor? Andy's tailor?

Something like that I hear in the office.
That’s it. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 229,177
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,360
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #272 on: July 29, 2019, 14:22:54 »
That's a lot of practice! For our colour presentation we practiced almost every Wednesday evening and most (3/4) weekends from September until November. I missed portions of it as I was on course at the time (in fact I had course the following day!).

There was also practice in April and May of the preceding training year, but I was deployed at that time.
Trooping The Colours of The Second Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry on 27 March 1976. We practiced daily for 4-5 hours per day.  Our Reviewing Officer was Lady Patricia Brabourne, The Colonel in Chief accompanied by her father, Lord Louis Mountbatten.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Fishbone Jones

    MSC -7245.

  • "Some people will only like you if you fit inside their box. Don't be afraid to shove that box up their ass."
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 281,362
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,683
    • Army.ca
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #273 on: July 29, 2019, 19:14:38 »
Why do we have threads, that are shorter than 11 pages, about lack of equipment, real problems of procurement or the CAF budget.

Perhaps the reason we're carrying on so, is that the agenda of the CDS, his buttons, his bows and his PR damage control escapades covering for his bosses, has conditioned us to where we're more concerned with beards than bullets and boots.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 253,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,069
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #274 on: July 29, 2019, 19:27:10 »
Why do we have threads, that are shorter than 11 pages, about lack of equipment, real problems of procurement or the CAF budget.

Perhaps the reason we're carrying on so, is that the agenda of the CDS, his buttons, his bows and his PR damage control escapades covering for his bosses, has conditioned us to where we're more concerned with beards than bullets and boots.

Proper dress, drill and deportment are the foundations of self-respect, and self-confidence, which breeds other - equally important - things in soldiers under stress in times of war... e.g.,

At Apeldoorn, Major Frank Lindley found himself in a room with about twenty other wounded Officer POWs. He says "We were all dirty and unshaven and in various stages of dress and undress. The door opened and in came RSM John Lord, also a POW. He was dressed in immaculate battledress, trousers creased, and he had an arm supported in a snow white sling. Without a word he turned his head slowly to look at each individual in turn and then said in his brisk voice "Gentlemen, I think you should all shave!" He then turned about, stamped his foot and marched out of the room. The effect was electric. The motley group of officers Infantry, Gunners, Engineers etc. stirred themselves and started to clean themselves up. It was an unforgettable experience". - quoted in To Revel in God's Sunshine; The story of the Army career of the late [Sandhurst] Academy Sergeant Major J.C. Lord, MVO, MBE, compiled by Richard Alford

http://regimentalrogue.com/quotes/quotes_ncos2.htm

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon