Author Topic: What is a Veteran?  (Read 54951 times)

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Offline mover1

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2010, 23:12:34 »
Citizenship - This applies to all federal Public Service positions. Applications made by persons who are not Canadian citizens are accepted. However, if there are sufficient qualified applicants who are Canadian citizens, the selection will be confined to these applicants.

Appointments will be made in the following order:

1. Canadian Veteran
2. Widower or widow of a Canadian Veteran
3. Canadian citizen
4. Persons not belonging to the previous groups.


The Public Service Employment Act defines "veteran" as follows:

“veteran”
« ancien combattant »
“veteran” means, subject to subsection 2(1) of this Schedule, a person who

(a) during World War I was on active service overseas in the naval, army or air forces or who served on the high seas in a seagoing ship of war in the naval forces of His Majesty or of any of the Allies of His Majesty, and who has left that service with an honourable record or has been honourably discharged,
(b) during World War II was on active service
(i) in the naval, army or air forces of His Majesty or of any of His Majesty’s Allies and at the commencement of that active service was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland, or

(ii) in the naval, army or air forces of Canada, and, not being domiciled in Canada at the commencement of that active service, is a Canadian citizen,

and who, in the course of that service, performed duties outside of the Western Hemisphere, or on the high seas in a ship or other vessel service that was, at the time the person performed those duties, classed as “sea time” for the purpose of the advancement of naval ratings, or that would have been so classed had the ship or other vessel been in the service of the naval forces of Canada,

(c) during World War II served as a member of the Women’s Royal Naval Services or as a member of the South African Military Nursing Service outside of the Western Hemisphere and who, at the commencement of her service during World War II, was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland,
(d) has been certified by the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs as having been enrolled in Canada or Newfoundland by United Kingdom authorities for special duty during World War II in war areas outside of the Western Hemisphere, and who served outside of the Western Hemisphere, and at the time of enrolment was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland, or
(e) during World War II served outside of the Western Hemisphere with the naval, army or air forces of His Majesty raised in Canada or Newfoundland as a representative of Canadian Legion War Services, Inc., the National Council of the Young Men’s Christian Associations of Canada, Knights of Columbus Canadian Army Huts, or Salvation Army Canadian War Services, was authorized so to serve by the appropriate naval, army or air force authority and who, at the commencement of that service with those forces during World War II, was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland;
 

This was the definition of a veteran given to me by the HR department of  the Federal Public service when I applied for a job this past Feb.

Thanks for your service.  But we don't recognize it

Offline mover1

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2010, 17:40:43 »
Gnr Morton

You lost me dude. :-\
WTF was your post about?

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2014, 15:14:07 »
I think the issues are how politicians and the public view veterans.

I still have it in my mind a "veteran" is WW2 or Korea.

I believe this is the view most people hold - Uncle Bob for down the road who went to France in 1944. They do not view "nephew" or "niece" who went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and AQ in the same light.
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2014, 15:21:16 »
I believe this is the view most people hold......
Most people probably don't give much thought to it at all.  It's simply more evidence that the 'yellow ribbon/support the troops' sentiment was a mile wide and an inch deep. 

Merely history repeating itself -- peacetime: soldiers and dogs stay off the lawn.

Offline Jed

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2014, 15:32:41 »
I think the issues are how politicians and the public view veterans.

I still have it in my mind a "veteran" is WW2 or Korea.

I believe this is the view most people hold - Uncle Bob for down the road who went to France in 1944. They do not view "nephew" or "niece" who went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and AQ in the same light.

I think you are correct, Jim, on what the public perceives to be Veterans. After WWII and probably WWI the public most likely viewed their veterans as 20 or 30 somethings. This self imposed segregation of former serving personnel has been ongoing for a long time.

I myself feel I have earned my veteran license plate even though there are many who are older or younger with harder and longer or easier or shorter TI then myself.

This does not diminish my respect for those who served in WWII or Korea or whether or not they were a cook or combat arms.
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Offline stokerwes

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2014, 09:26:55 »
I myself do not think myself a veteran, even though I have 25+ years with numerous deployments and am still serving. That is part of the issue. When most Canadians, including myself and other serving members, think of a veteran they picture the WWI WWII and Korean vets. This is partly because there are two different systems that serve members depending on when where they served. This segregates us by default. If there was one system covering all veterans it would force us to unite. It's human nature to not get involved in any confrontation unless you it affects you personally. This is why the vets under the pension system didn't appear to be opposing the changes to the charter. When the NVA was passed I think, I hope, the MP's voted the NVA in so quickly was that it was meant to be a living document in which changes could be made quickly as needs changed. Now the NVA is in place it appears that in order for any changes to be made it takes numerous investigations and study groups and think tanks and blah,blah,blah.... until any changes are made.
The Ombudsman has clearly laid out some of the "minimum" changes that should be made immediately. What does VAC, lead by MP Fantino, do? Launch another review, now MP's are stating they should have Canada wide town halls to hear the concerns the vets have in order to conduct this new review of the charter. This has been done to the point of redundancy, yet politicians cannot take their collective heads our of their a**es and see what is obvious. It's almost like they are afraid to make a decision.  ;)
I believe the Ombudsman has all veterans best interests in mind at all times. He is our collective voice. If veterans pass on any issues to his office he and his staff do followup with them regardless of how small they may seem. I wish that more vets use the ombudsman's office. They cannot raise any issues that they do not know about. If the Ombudsman's office was used to its full potential there would be less newsclips of veterans and MP's pointing their fingers and yelling at each other, this makes for great news, but in the end nothing gets accomplished and it does little for our cause.
I do believe that Mr. Fantino should be removed as the Minister of VAC I have even wrote my MP on this, surprisingly I didn't get a reply from him, that's one less vote that Scott Reid, MP for Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington (Ontario) will be getting. Mr. Fantino won't be fired as much as anyone may want him to be, and he certainly will not resign as I am sure he feels he has done nothing wrong and is doing a great job. He appears to have little regard for veterans and their concerns. He is almost tied with Rob Ford for publicly apologizing for things he has said and done in the past to upset veterans. When asked questions he keeps stating the same facts over and over again hoping that if he says it enough it will become reality.
As I approach release I really hope that there are changes made to the NVC that will improve the ability for veterans to have easy and fast access to services they desperately need.
End Rant  :salute:
Have a good weekend everyone  :nod:
 

Offline Jed

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2014, 09:42:37 »
I myself do not think myself a veteran, even though I have 25+ years with numerous deployments and am still serving.

You are not a veteran, you are still serving. Let's see how you feel after you pull pole and spend a couple years aways from the greater military community.
As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2014, 09:44:01 »
Well said stokerwes.  I too, did not consider myself a Veteran while serving.  Canadians on a whole, as has been pointed out already, seem to think of Veterans as only those who have fought in both World Wars and Korea.  I have even seen Veterans like one "Old Trooper" commenting on some of those who met Mr. Fantino as not being real Veterans because their medals did not include any medals for bravery or Afghanistan.  There have been many Veterans who have no medals for the "crap holes" they have been to, on Deployments, Tours, etc.  We have the "Atomic soldiers" and those affected by "Agent Orange", those who were in Somalia and Rwanda, those who have served in Bosnia collecting bodies, those who served in Cambodia and Vietnam or in the Middle East.  Hundreds have died in the service of this country outside of the two World Wars, Korea and now Afghanistan, but some narrow minded people, some of them Veterans, do not recognize their Service or downplay it as that of REMFs.  It is an awkward battle to fight, if Veterans can't even agree on who is and who is not a Veteran.
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Offline xo31@711ret

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2014, 10:18:05 »
well said recceguy  :salute:

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2014, 10:20:38 »
Hundreds have died in the service of this country outside of the two World Wars, Korea and now Afghanistan, but some narrow minded people, some of them Veterans, do not recognize their Service or downplay it as that of REMFs.  It is an awkward battle to fight, if Veterans can't even agree on who is and who is not a Veteran.

Well summed up. A Korean veteran told me that the RCL, post Korea, was not welcoming of Korean vets as they weren't "real" vets.
Seems things haven't changed a great deal.
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Offline Nemo888

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2014, 10:25:27 »
Perhaps we should just use veteran as a term for anyone who served and has to use VAC if they get grievously hurt. It's not like you can sue the army or go to WSIB like civvies.

Some seem to be labouring under the assumption that the problems with the current system are an oversight or a mistake. I was a fly on the wall in 2005 at NDMC when the NVC was being drafted. Veterans were going to cost too much. Period. Cost is the only reason for the NVC. Looking after the wounded was going to cost more than prosecuting the war under the old system. The solution was to slash the benefits and pour money into a large public relations campaign. The PR firm that came up with the catch phrase "Living Charter" was the spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down. in the end the Ombudsman is a political appointee who will do as he is told. The last one who tried anything else was fired on the spot. Now we have an unfair system where pre 2005 vets get huge payouts and those after no matter how much combat they have seen get a tiny fraction.

The official playbook is stall and give promises until we all get too old or tired or blow our brains out. What have we gotten other than empty promises in the last 5 years? Priority Hiring? You are first in line after the 20,000 employees laid off. The pretty pamphlets and public speeches don't cost a dime. The 5 billion in promises only led to an additional outlay of 1.3 million in benefits last fiscal year. We are being conned by the sitting government and used by the opposition parties. We need a short list of things we want and we need to control our message. The government beancounters want the same thing they did in '05. To save money by taking benefits away from veterans.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 10:29:07 by Nemo888 »

Offline MJP

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2014, 11:03:37 »
in the end the Ombudsman is a political appointee who will do as he is told. The last one who tried anything else was fired on the spot. Now we have an unfair system where pre 2005 vets get huge payouts and those after no matter how much combat they have seen get a tiny fraction.

Sorry for the derail.

This is twice now you have said this.  The last ombudsman did nothing until he found out he wasn't being renewed and then he did what he does best and made loud ineffectual noise.  Good riddance. 
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2014, 11:24:25 »
Perhaps we should just use veteran as a term for anyone who served and has to use VAC
So because you believe yourself to be a special little princess, I'm no longer entitled to consider myself a veteran?    ::)


Well you certainly fit in with those yammering idiots who 'stormed out of Fantino's office because they were disrespected'....in that YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME!


No response required; with each post you reaffirm why you are amongst the "permanent-Ignore"

Offline Teager

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2014, 11:58:45 »
Journeyman I think the way he wrote that came out wrong. I believe he was trying to say anyone who has served OR used VAC services. Although you would have needed to serve to receive VAC services so the "and has to use VAC" would be irrelevant.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2014, 12:24:15 »
I guess that's the down-side to actually reading what people post, and presuming a degree of responsibility for what one writes -- despite evidence to the contrary.

But thank you for acting as his 'terp.

Offline Nemo888

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2014, 13:17:47 »
I simply meant veteran as a legal term. My apologies if that was unclear. Someone who served and cannot use civilian workplace injury legislation and needs go through Veterans Affairs. Generally if identical injuries happened in a civilian workplace the payout would be 10 times or more what VAC pays. Compounded by unlimited liability the treatment of soldiers compared to their civilian counterparts has become quite unfair.

Offline stokerwes

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2014, 14:41:01 »
I myself do not think myself a veteran, even though I have 25+ years with numerous deployments and am still serving.

You are not a veteran, you are still serving. Let's see how you feel after you pull pole and spend a couple years aways from the greater military community.

I'll have to disagree on that. I am a veteran according to all government legislation, and this is wherein a lot of the issues lie. It doesn't matter where you served where you went or if you are currently serving or not serving. This only perpetuates our, meaning Veterans (those that have served and are currently serving), lack of ability to get our sh**t together and agree on what is needed for all Veterans. Was someone who fought in WWII and returned home to stay in the military not a Veteran. I think not!
Have a great day  :)

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2014, 15:07:06 »
Since it's drifting into "what's a vet, exactly?" territory here, I'm moving some posts to an already-in-place "What's a Vet?" thread.

Continue, folks.

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Offline Jed

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Re: Re: Fantino Disrespects Vets in Meeting
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2014, 16:15:10 »
I'll have to disagree on that. I am a veteran according to all government legislation, and this is wherein a lot of the issues lie. It doesn't matter where you served where you went or if you are currently serving or not serving. This only perpetuates our, meaning Veterans (those that have served and are currently serving), lack of ability to get our sh**t together and agree on what is needed for all Veterans. Was someone who fought in WWII and returned home to stay in the military not a Veteran. I think not!
Have a great day  :)

Well maybe in rereading my comment I could have phrased this better. Of course those soldiers returning from WWII and entering the service were considered veterans.

The public's definition of what a veteran is has evolved and will continue to evolve as time passes. You and I have subtly different views on what a veteran is. I personally consider that you will be a veteran when you retire. That is when I started to think of myself as a veteran; when I left the Reg force, than the Primary Res and a year or so in the civi world wilderness away from the military.

 :)

As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

Offline Jed

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2014, 16:34:25 »
it is interesting we are discussing this.  I was in Calgary a few months back and I was wearing one of those RCL Veteran ball caps and I was verbally bushwacked by a couple of 50 to 60 year old executive types from the USA. They started to do the Walt outing interrogation routine because they thought I looked too young to be a WWII or Korea vet and Canada did not have all that many people serve in Vietnam. No other service time mattered as far as they were concerned. They maybe could make allowances for Iraq service.

So, legal definitions aside, when do we consider service men and women or former service men and women Veterans?

Also, as an aside, when travelling through the US in Canadian uniform I was always treated with better respect by their USO services in airports or on base then I ever was in 22 years in Canada.

As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

Offline ArmyDoc

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2014, 21:44:39 »

The RCL definition of "veteran" is anyone who has served and has completed basic training ie BMQ.  This means that those still serving are veterans, those who released after Basic are vets, etc.

Offline ajp

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #96 on: January 31, 2014, 22:49:39 »
Personally...land just my opinion....if you have a cd, automatic vet.   I'd you have a tour....yup....a vet.  BMQ....kinda shy of vet status.  My opinion. 

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #97 on: February 05, 2014, 12:59:34 »
Personally...land just my opinion....if you have a cd, automatic vet.   I'd you have a tour....yup....a vet.  BMQ....kinda shy of vet status.  My opinion. 

Hmm,.....so what am I?  Got out after 10 1/2 years.........tours??... hard to come by in the 80's.
Was just about to mail away for the NDI 75 card, maybe I shouldn't bother??
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Offline Jed

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #98 on: February 05, 2014, 13:47:36 »
Hmm,.....so what am I?  Got out after 10 1/2 years.........tours??... hard to come by in the 80's.
Was just about to mail away for the NDI 75 card, maybe I shouldn't bother??

This speaks to my point. What of any of those who signed on for 9 years before getting an IRP offer and then got out ?  As you said there were not a lot of tours in the 80's but there were a number of crappy no medal awarded deployments or TD.

As far as I am concerned you qualify as a veteran both legally and by unofficial definition.
As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

Offline Journeyman

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Re: What is a Veteran?
« Reply #99 on: February 05, 2014, 13:50:28 »
Hmm,.....so what am I?
Must.......not..........post.....     >:D

       ;D