Author Topic: Venezuela Superthread- Merged  (Read 82705 times)

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: CHAVEZ ET AL at the UN
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2006, 20:54:06 »
Oh god. How can we accuse him of electoral fraud when we (the Western world) go around the world setting up sham democracy in places like Haiti and Afghanistan and Iraq?

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Offline KevinB

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Re: CHAVEZ ET AL at the UN
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2006, 21:33:29 »
Hey put your money where your mouth is take a trip and visit some of those shitholes you cast comments about.  Many of us here have served in those places and youur effectively pissing on us, friends we have lost and all of those efforts.
Oh and


« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 07:17:21 by Mike Bobbitt »
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: CHAVEZ ET AL at the UN
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2006, 11:38:59 »
Oh god. How can we accuse him of electoral fraud when we (the Western world) go around the world setting up sham democracy in places like Haiti and Afghanistan and Iraq? As much as I agree that those regions need democratic systems, we cannot claim that they have political legitimacy as of yet.  At least Chavez does.


Don't forget the others we set up Germany, Japan, France.....

dileas

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Offline Spidron

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Re: CHAVEZ ET AL at the UN
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2006, 12:09:55 »
Interesting thread. It would have died out by now if it were not for a couple folks who would like to blame the Americans for the problems arising out of a few thousand years of world history. You have to wonder how such self-righteousness came to be? When did the discussion of US foreign policy become so 'personal' to people at arms lengths. Has emotion clouded judgement so badly that some people believe what they want to believe regardless of what logic they are presented with? The 'big lie' has once again found a voice in Iran and I can only hope that someday my kids won't be breathing radiation while the self-righteousness insist the US should have done something.

Offline Hexx

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Re: CHAVEZ ET AL at the UN
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2006, 13:23:28 »
I'd actually think both sides are to blame. Yes Chavez has gone from making somewhat valid points to making himself look like
a lunatic, but why are people surprised that he doesn't like the US and is making friends with other countries?
The US officially seemed to support the coup in which he was ousted, before the people they thought would support his replacements demonstrated en masse against them
Chavez seems to thing the US has tried to assassinate him, and while certainly possible it's nothing more than a paranoid delusion, it's not beyond the realm of possibility
that it has happened.The Venezuelan elections were legitimate, yet the US funds (or has funded) opposition parties...

Real world politics make what both sides have done acceptable, to say that Chavez or the US is "in the right" is kinda silly.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: CHAVEZ ET AL at the UN
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2006, 15:28:57 »
Chavez, like Mugabe, presents a wonderful opportunity.  Simply leave the man alone.  Spend not a dime to support him or a dime to hinder him.  His achievements or lack thereof will speak for themselves, and there will be no-one else to blame.  If Venezuela under Chavez does not become a good example, it can serve as the proverbial horrible warning.
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Offline Centurian1985

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Chavez at al
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2006, 02:19:45 »
Hey Colin P, took me a while to find this thread again.

Based on some recent articles, looks like the Chavez has stepped up his anti-Americanism and is leaning farther into the neo-Communist camp.  Looks less and less like simple posturing and rhetoric.  You read anything lately that would put him into renegade territory yet?

Offline Colin P

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Chavez at al
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2006, 10:47:08 »
I haven't been watching it closely, but hear rumblings internally about failed programs. always a bad sign when a politican spends more time and money abroad then at home.

Offline time expired

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Re: CHAVEZ ET AL at the UN
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2006, 15:16:11 »
Decoy
 You can throw away your grotty old Che G. t shirt and buy a Chavez t shirt as he will probably
 become the new hero of the lunatic left. For a while.
                       Regards
nothing is better for the morale of the troops
as occasionally to see a dead general
               field marshal slim

Offline warspite

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Chavez at al
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2006, 14:22:09 »
Maybe it's just me being paranoid, but historically roughly every hundred years or so a major war comes along. By major I mean a sink or swim war, i.e if you lose, you lose everything. The last such war was WWII( no disrespect to the wars since just that if we ever lost in the Persian gulf, Afghanistan, Korea, etc. we would still be here, I'm not including the cold war because it never went hot, etc). It's been nearly a century and here we are again with a group of potential foes.
Isn't it true that history loves to repeat itself?

Edit: Please ignore this post it was for a different thread and isn't finished, no idea how it got here but my internet did screw up while I was writing this.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2006, 20:37:13 by warspite »

Offline tomahawk6

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Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2007, 17:04:35 »
Chavez's power base are the poor.If they cant buy food then eventually they will blame Chavez. It will be interesting to see if his dictatorial powers are renewed in 18 months.A coup would be a welcome alternative.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/17/world/americas/17venezuela.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

Quote
Food producers and economists say the measures announced late Thursday night, which include removing three zeroes from the denomination of Venezuela’s currency, are likely to backfire and generate even more acute shortages and higher prices for consumers. Inflation climbed to an annual rate of 18.4 percent a year in January, the highest in Latin America and far above the official target of 10 to 12 percent.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2007, 19:15:56 »
Quote
Mr. Chávez, whose leftist populism remains highly popular among Venezuela’s poor and working classes, seemed unfazed by criticism of his policies. Appearing live on national television, he called for the creation of “committees of social control,” essentially groups of his political supporters whose purpose would be to report on farmers, ranchers, supermarket owners and street vendors who circumvent the state’s effort to control food prices.


He apparently doesn't read Russian OR French.  Venezuelan Famine next year.  Counter-Revolution 18 months.  Unless he gets as vicious as Stalin and Lenin.
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Offline TN2IC

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2007, 19:18:12 »
A coup sounds about good. As long it is doesn't get out of control.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2007, 16:27:32 »
So far so good.  Now if the Yanks can just restrain themselves from putting their fingers in the pie, this generation of revolutionary dreamers can have one clear and inexcusable example of where the good intentions lead.
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Offline geo

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2007, 17:30:50 »
Chavez's power base are the poor.If they cant buy food then eventually they will blame Chavez. It will be interesting to see if his dictatorial powers are renewed in 18 months.A coup would be a welcome alternative.

Look at Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe..... the country is a complete and total basket case and he's still holding onto power... In Venezuela, Chavez has Oil.... you can survive many mistakes with petrodollars.
Chimo!

Offline TCBF

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2007, 17:38:44 »
He will need help, and who are the new Communists?

The enviromentalists.

 All he has to do is declare himself a born-again Green, and the liberalist elite of the Western World will beat a path to his door.  Depending on his smarts, he could make Yassir Arafat look like an amatuer.
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Offline geo

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2007, 17:43:21 »
Chavez has taken a stand..... anyone/anywhere but the US.

He provides oil to Cuba and he gets trained medical personnel from Cuba.
And we also know that he's good buddies with the President of Iran
Chimo!

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2007, 04:17:38 »
You only have to look at North Korea to see how far you can go. For the price of a few sea cans of consumer goods; the Dear Leader can co opt enough people to maintian power. Although Chavez, Mugabe, Castro, Pol Pot and a depressig ctalogue of would be reformers always give lip service t the poor; make no mistake, they are in it fir the wealth and power that accues to them.

A counter revolution will have great difficulty pulling Chavez down, even a collapsed economy hasn't stopped any of his friends. The other factor is most people want stability, so even if a revolution suceeds, the people will be in no mood for radical economic reforms. They will welcome a dictator who can keed the peace (why do you think monsters like Lenin, Hitler or Napoleon were able to take control of their nations? They were ruthless enough to crush the opposition during periods of civil strife), and perhaps the best we could hope for is a "Pinochet" who will be a moderate ruler and provide stability to rebuild the nation a la Chile.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline geo

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2007, 08:19:33 »
... Hmmm.... Franco?
Chimo!

Offline NL_engineer

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2007, 09:47:47 »
So far so good.  Now if the Yanks can just restrain themselves from putting their fingers in the pie, this generation of revolutionary dreamers can have one clear and inexcusable example of where the good intentions lead.

The farther left Mr. Chavez goes, the better chance the US will get involved. 

If I remember correctly the US's policy on Communism haven't changed, so judging by past practise they will get involved in one form or another (economically most likely as most of the American troops are tied up in Iraq and Astan).

 Also note that the US gets oil from Venezuela.
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Offline seamus

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2007, 10:02:06 »
I think Mr. Chavez is doing a great job cleaning up Venezuela, it was a real crap hole. And how did it get like that, through American intervention. I hope he cleans up the place and the only thing that will cause more problems than his policies is western intervention.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 10:09:25 by seamus »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2007, 10:44:58 »
Thanks for the reality check Arthur - now my Monday morning is complete. It is also pouring buckets out here on the wet coast.  Do you have any more good news?  :)
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Colin P

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2007, 11:24:13 »
I got to work a bit in Venezuela back in 94, the country was controlled by about 5 families and corruption was crippling everything. Most of the mining was being done by illegal immigrants from neighbouring countries. Their opinion of Venezuelans was rather low, considering them lazy. The country is teeming with resources.

When I first heard about Chavez I thought this may help the country, but it’s pretty clear to me that Bolivar seeds are still sprouting and the country is about to get screwed royally. They should just give up and send us the woman and the rum now.

Food always becomes a weapon which despots like Chavez will use to control the population.

Offline rmacqueen

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Re: Venezuela On The Road to Collapse ?
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2007, 07:45:38 »
The real winners will be the oil companies as any sort of unrest will cause the speculators on wall street to drive up the price of crude.  As undesirable as Chavez may be, the US will want a stable market rather than volatility which could prompt them to stick their noses in.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Venezuela in Turmoil
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2007, 10:01:31 »
One can only hope that the pro-democracy folks can topple Chavez, otherwise the future is bleak for millions of Venezuelans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6699383.stm