Author Topic: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]  (Read 173291 times)

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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2009, 12:41:25 »
Let's just go back to tri-service work dress.  That will solve all the "confusion"..... ::)   ;)
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2009, 13:00:07 »
That was a bad move the first time around.  How about a fourth uniform for purple trades - anyone up for wearing a purple tunic?   ;D
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Offline M Feetham

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2009, 14:48:37 »
I think the best answer to this question was that each base and unit will decide what it's personnel will wear depending on situation. When I was teaching in ST Jean I wore Cbts for the entire course until the troops returned theirs and then I wore environmental specific dress, IE... NCD's or DEU's. Personnaly if I'm working ashore, even on an army base I should be wearing my salt and peppers, and only changing to cbt's if I go in the field.
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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2009, 22:16:11 »
As a member of a shooting team, I can speak on sailors in CADPAT a bit.

I was the last person to wear OD at CFSAC two years ago.  I got jacked up by MGen Beares, (sp?) over it.

Here in Halifax, we received permission to trade our OD's in for CADPAT about 2 years ago.  (for the shooting team)

I get some interesting looks when I change at the end of the day before I head to the range and walk out of the office in CADPAT.

That said, my regular dress of the day is a white short sleeve shirt, and black pants.

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2009, 23:20:06 »
Personally, I've never quite figured out why the Army and now the Air Force type seem fixated on wearing the most expensive clothing issued by the CF to wear around an office and push paper around.

Because it reduced the number of different uniforms bulking out personal closets and supply facilities. Units also looked like units again instead of three-ring circuses.

Of course, somebody had to go and ruin that with different coloured T-shirts and unreadable nametags and rank insignia.

There is more expensive clothing than combat, too. And the combat uniform could be produced far more cheaply with some common-sense simplifications.

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2009, 23:30:52 »
Because it reduced the number of different uniforms bulking out personal closets and supply facilities. Units also looked like units again instead of three-ring circuses.

Of course, somebody had to go and ruin that with different coloured T-shirts and unreadable nametags and rank insignia.

There is more expensive clothing than combat, too. And the combat uniform could be produced far more cheaply with some common-sense simplifications.

Like colourfastness perhaps?  I'm sure there would be a decent coin saved if uniforms didn't need to be replaced as often due to fading.  How can the CADPAT be considered effective if it's grey?
Also, nothing looks more stupid than a new CADPAT shirt and busted, washed out CADPAT pants.  Saw that way too much working at Scotia Square when we were in Halifax.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2009, 14:50:44 »
Like colourfastness perhaps?  I'm sure there would be a decent coin saved if uniforms didn't need to be replaced as often due to fading.  How can the CADPAT be considered effective if it's grey?
Also, nothing looks more stupid than a new CADPAT shirt and busted, washed out CADPAT pants.  Saw that way too much working at Scotia Square when we were in Halifax.

The old combat faded. Everything fades. It happens quicker on the uniforms worn outside more, though - more sun and more washings. Office workers can expect the dyes to last longer.

I was referring to the over-complication of the design. Every seam costs money, and there are far too many of them. Pockets within pockets, complicated pockets, interior pockets that nobody uses, tabs for flags, and if we absolutely have to wear our rank insignia a foot and a half above our genitalia rather than the shoulders were it belongs, just stick it on a velcro patch instead of another unnecessary tab.

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2009, 15:08:14 »
The old combat faded. Everything fades. It happens quicker on the uniforms worn outside more, though - more sun and more washings. Office workers can expect the dyes to last longer.

And don't forget the OG107's also turned into "combat lingerie" over time.
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Offline Lil_T

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2009, 15:32:45 »
And don't forget the OG107's also turned into "combat lingerie" over time.

sexy. 

I'll agree about the multitude of pockets/ seams/ superfluous stitching etc.  I'll never understand the pocket-within-a-pocket thing.  I mean, if you're going to do that, why not go whole hog and give the pants a jogging pant hem instead of using boot bands while keeping the mudflap portion.  What's one more little bit of sewing - right?





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Offline Breacher41

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2009, 03:40:35 »
The old combat faded. Everything fades. It happens quicker on the uniforms worn outside more, though - more sun and more washings. Office workers can expect the dyes to last longer.

I was referring to the over-complication of the design. Every seam costs money, and there are far too many of them. Pockets within pockets, complicated pockets, interior pockets that nobody uses, tabs for flags, and if we absolutely have to wear our rank insignia a foot and a half above our genitalia rather than the shoulders were it belongs, just stick it on a velcro patch instead of another unnecessary tab.

Agreed. It would see our current CADPAT uniforms mimic the design of US ACU pattern shirts. Forgoing the lower pockets which aren't accessible with body armour on, and no to mention the useless bulging chest pockets that once again, aren't accessible with armour on. Move pockets to arms with large velcro panels sewn on the outside.

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Offline CorporalMajor

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2009, 05:40:39 »
That was a bad move the first time around.  How about a fourth uniform for purple trades - anyone up for wearing a purple tunic?   ;D



It would also mean, purple berets, purple linings on tags, purple undershirts.

Hmmm.
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Offline gwp

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2009, 18:52:06 »
You are maybe overlooking the presence of NRD's throughout the major inland cities. None of the sailors at those units should be wearing CADPAT and are supposed to be the Naval presence in the inland cities. Granted, they are typically only working one or two evenings a week but that image problem in inland areas is the reason why there are NRD's in places like Saskatoon and Calgary.
Not overlooking it at all.  Every sailor has a stake in the public presence of the Canadian Navy everywhere in Canada.  The Command and Formation Cheifs can't be everywhere to jack people up.  Every sailor needs to take a stand ... that unless you are crawling in the mud ... "sailors don't wear cadpat"

Quote
The Navy does not want their personnel wearing CADPAT, just for the sake of wearing it. Obviously, if a Navy member is deployed, or employed in field work, where they are down in the dirt, crawling around on their bellies, or requires the camouflage elements of the kit, then it's required. For instruction duty in the field, on the range, etc, it is not required...
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 18:58:10 by gwp »

Offline Radar114

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2009, 11:24:04 »
I'm glad that the NCDs don't turn green or purple anymore when they fade out.

Offline cheeky_monkey

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2009, 11:35:51 »
Now with RMC getting a new Commandant in September, who just happens to be of the Naval variety, I wonder if that means all NCdts will no longer be forced to wear CADPAT.
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Offline Monsoon

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2009, 13:44:10 »
I was referring to the over-complication of the design. Every seam costs money, and there are far too many of them. Pockets within pockets, complicated pockets, interior pockets that nobody uses, tabs for flags
They all have reasons for being there - and those reasons are founded in the fundamental purpose of CADPAT being an order of dress for people working in field environments. Rather than customizing CADPAT so that it can be cheaply issued to people working offices (at the expense of the pockets 'n stuff that the combat arms guys need), why don't we just wear office clothing in offices? It's not like the CF stopped issuing DEUs when they came up with CADPAT.

I'm sure the Sergeants-Major out there can repress the bile that rises to their throats at the sight of someone wearing Air Force or Navy DEUs.

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2009, 05:17:10 »
They all have reasons for being there - and those reasons are founded in the fundamental purpose of CADPAT being an order of dress for people working in field environments. Rather than customizing CADPAT so that it can be cheaply issued to people working offices (at the expense of the pockets 'n stuff that the combat arms guys need), why don't we just wear office clothing in offices? It's not like the CF stopped issuing DEUs when they came up with CADPAT.

No, they don't all have reasons for being there - certainly not logical ones, anyway.

Most of what I am talking about is irrelevant to the utility of the uniform as combat dress. Combat Arms guys do not need the current pockets  on the chest or the interior breast or lower interior pockets, and nobody needs the flag tab.

Look at the US Army ACU or Marine uniforms to see a much more practical design.

The breast pockets on combat clothing are vestiges from the olive green version, and they existed to carry twenty-round FN magazines (a stupid idea to begin with. The box design is complicated and expensive to produce. It is useless for those wearing body armour and tac vests. The buttons are uncomfortable when wearing body armour. The interior pocket is also inaccessible when wearing body armour and tac vests, and stitching a pocket on either side of a single piece of fabric is especially complex and expensive. The US pockets are flat and close with velcro. While some advocate that the lower pockets on our combat clothing be done away with as the Americans have done, due to the body armour/tac vest issue, I find them useful but again, the design could be simplified and the interior pockets dispensed with. Nobody here has them in their AR CADPAT, as they've been removed and sewn onto the sleeves, something that should be standardized.

The flag tab contributes nothing to the combat utility either. Velcro patches are stitched to the sleeve pockets on the AR combat clothing, and various patches are attached to them. The US ACU uses this. Dispense with the tab, move the sleeve pockets a little higher than they are (mine interfere with bending my arm if I have anything in them) and put the flag on velcro stitched to the pocket flap.

Again, if we are going to wear rank insignia in the centre of the visible mass, just stick a square patch onto velcro as per the name tape. It's simpler and cheaper to produce than slip-ons and buttoned tabs, and there's no button to be pushed into one's sternum.

See MedTech's post above as well.

I would never push for a CADPAT version of Garrison Dress as you seem to think that I am. I am suggesting, however, a more practical field uniform that reflects the reality of our current and likely future combat operations, that would also end up costing less to produce.

Offline CountDC

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2009, 10:09:47 »


It would also mean, purple berets, purple linings on tags, purple undershirts.

Hmmm.

Then we can have  a vote for our HCol - Prince or Donnie Osmond - king of the purple socks.
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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2009, 12:20:54 »
Then we can have  a vote for our HCol - Prince or Donnie Osmond - king of the purple socks.

And, of course, there's always......



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Offline Messmom

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2009, 09:18:37 »
Well, the pics are finally up at the NICE site and they don't look too bad.

BUT!!!

There is always a but, the name tapes have got to go. Navy/Marine sewn into the tape? I have no interest in answering the question I will be asked most. Wether I am in the Navy or the Marines. And you KNOW that is what most civies are going to think.

Last name with a fouled anchor either side of it. Loose the Navy/Marine.
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Offline Snakedoc

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2009, 15:48:39 »
There are some pictures up on this thread (I believe pg6):

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/index.php/topic,79706.90.html

I've personally become a fan of the 'camou' style that both the US and Royal Australian Navy's are moving towards (pictures of both also in the thread link).

Offline Messmom

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2009, 06:57:32 »
Camo? For what purpose? What do we have to blend into? Ship side grey? Mess deck red?

Camo on sailors makes absolutely zero sense. About as much sense as the Air Force wearing it.
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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2009, 10:35:44 »
Camo? For what purpose? What do we have to blend into? Ship side grey? Mess deck red?

Camo on sailors makes absolutely zero sense. About as much sense as the Air Force wearing it.
I agree. no value at all in having another set of uniform with a pointless camoflague pattern just to avoid having to wear NCD's in non-sea going roles. I thought the point was to minimize the number of orders of dress that need to be maintained.

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2009, 10:47:35 »
Well, the pics are finally up at the NICE site and they don't look too bad.

BUT!!!

There is always a but, the name tapes have got to go. Navy/Marine sewn into the tape? I have no interest in answering the question I will be asked most. Wether I am in the Navy or the Marines. And you KNOW that is what most civies are going to think.

Last name with a fouled anchor either side of it. Loose the Navy/Marine.
I agree. Who came up with that idea and to what end? Is the answer to developing a better naval identity in this country to put our organization's name on our jackets? Should we also do that on our DEU as I have had numerous questions about what organization I belong to while wearing that kit. Will our Air Force and Army comrades have to have the same added to their name tapes?

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2009, 10:55:19 »
About as much sense as the Air Force wearing it.

Yeah because the AF doesnt have to fly things over land or fix helicopters in the field eh ?

How about aircrews having to abandon their aircraft over hostile territory ? They would do just fine in bright blue uniforms wouldn't they ?


Offline Sailorwest

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Re: Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2009, 11:49:50 »
Yeah because the AF doesnt have to fly things over land or fix helicopters in the field eh ?

How about aircrews having to abandon their aircraft over hostile territory ? They would do just fine in bright blue uniforms wouldn't they ?
Well, what uniform would you be wearing when you're flying over water or have to fix helicopters on a ship?