Author Topic: Apaches  (Read 61314 times)

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #125 on: April 29, 2018, 23:09:24 »
The Red October.

Well played sir!

I like that!
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Offline alexanderpeterson

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #126 on: April 30, 2018, 00:30:16 »
Best thread ever  :rofl:

Offline Loachman

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #127 on: April 30, 2018, 00:34:32 »
The last few posts have been a huge improvement, at least.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #128 on: April 30, 2018, 01:56:49 »
I think it's pretty clear from those that know the military and government, that this fantasy is an absolute non starter. Canada's debt is now to the point where we can't even lease Sopwith Camels in any quantity. Never mind the training, spares, maintenance contracts and the possible stadup of a new squadron and it's facilities. The Canadian government, it seems at this time, has no interest at all in the CAF or their tribulations of rust out and obsolete and subpar equipment.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2018, 04:20:06 »
typicalLiiberal government.

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #130 on: April 30, 2018, 07:40:35 »
The Red October.

Only if we can get Alec Baldwin and Sean Connery to steal it for us.

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #131 on: April 30, 2018, 08:05:26 »
I think it's pretty clear from those that know the military and government, that this fantasy is an absolute non starter. Canada's debt is now to the point where we can't even lease Sopwith Camels in any quantity. Never mind the training, spares, maintenance contracts and the possible stadup of a new squadron and it's facilities. The Canadian government, it seems at this time, has no interest at all in the CAF or their tribulations of rust out and obsolete and subpar equipment.

This has been the Liberal Party of Canada's MO for six decades.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #132 on: April 30, 2018, 08:21:24 »
This has been the Liberal Party of Canada's MO for six decades.


In fairness, Prime Minister Harper threw the defence budget under the bus in 2012, but, also in fairness, only after all the admirals and generals persuaded MND Peter MacKay to outright disobey the PM's direction to cut real property and our already bloated C2 superstructure. (Did MacKay suffer, I wonder, from some form of 'Stockholm Syndrome' after being locked up in 101 Colonel By Drive with all the brass?) Equally, Brian Mulroney proposed a lot ~ even nuclear submarines ~ but offered no new money ... not after one had factored inflation into the equation.

It's not a uniquely Liberal issue. The fact, and I assert that it is a demonstrable fact, is that most (maybe 85%+) Canadians think governments already spend enough or too much on defence. (I can dig up the polling if someone insists, but, recently, last couple of years, I saw that support for increased defence spending was down at 10 to 15% ... just above support for more money for symphony orchestras and concert halls.) The notion of new ships, tanks and aircraft being just "toys for the boys" is well entrenched in Canadians' minds. Conservative and Liberals governments are just doing what their constituents demand ... which is a constant demand of many members of the ill informed political right wing.

So, if you want to know why we can't have new kit ...

     + Ask the admirals and generals why they thought they knew more than the prime minister; and

     + Ask the admirals and generals why they keep "low balling" costs: are they afraid of the real numbers or do they not understand basic accounting?

     + Ask your fiends and neighbours why they don't want a properly funded military ...

But don't blame politicians for doing what the people want ... that's dishonest.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2018, 11:32:13 »
Except that politicians don't do what the people want, once elected. They do what the party wants. ;)

Broad, over the top, I know. However, I don't think I'm that wrong.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2018, 12:02:14 »
Except that politicians don't do what the people want, once elected. They do what the party wants. ;)

Broad, over the top, I know. However, I don't think I'm that wrong.


We'll have to agree to disagree ... political parties have advanced the science of "market research" father, faster than the retail industry ever did. Political parties poll regularly and assiduously because their success is measured in votes ... you need to campaign and govern on a platform that people want, and, very, Very, VERY often what most people want is less or, at the very least, no more spending on symphony orchestras, opera halls and the military.

Now, I'm happy to agree that, in the case of the Liberal Party of Canada and the New Democrats, too, the party establishment is, for the most part, found amongst the so-called Laurentian Elites and they are, broadly and generally, anti-military or, at least, "for" peace and the UN and so on and believe that e.g. peacekeeping can be done safely and cheaply. But they, like the campaign teams, must fall into line with what the public wants ... and all that polling says that the public wants a cleaner environment and less carbon emissions and better treatment for First Nations and gender and racial equality right along with more, better jobs, more generous social programmes, better health care and lower taxes. The people, writ large, the voters don't care about their national defence until it is (almost) too late. The government ~ Conservative or Liberal ~ is only too happy to oblige because it already has too many difficult to impossible fiscal balls to juggle ...

     

Some governments, Paul Martin's and Stephen Harper's between 2004 and 2012 probably did care and probably did have ambitions to give Canada a better and maybe even bigger and better funded military but, even with Afghanistan, there were always too many other, often more politically important priorities ... absent a real big, costly (I mean casualty lists in the dozens or more every single day) war or a HUGE scandal defence will never climb to the top of the "importance" poll.

So, my old friend, politicians are doing what most people want, most of the time ... it's just that they, the people, almost never want what is important to you and me.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Loch Sloy!

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #135 on: April 30, 2018, 12:04:04 »
The Griffins will need replacing sooner rather than later.

The USMC "rebuild" of their Hueys into UH-1Ys was a very clever procurement bait and switch that resulted in a really capable aircraft that they may not have got otherwise... given the Griffon lineage this might work for us too.

As a side benefit we might be able to sell the parts commonality with the AH-1Z to get 10 or 20 Cobras while we're at it. Not sure the Airforce would be interested in the above, but it sure would be comforting for us grunts if something like that came to pass.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #136 on: April 30, 2018, 12:42:11 »
As for Canadian govt's--all stripes--and defence procurement balls-ups over time and now, Kim Richard Nossal's Charlie Foxtrot: Fixing Defence Procurement in Canada is, er, bang-on (though he makes few historical errors about details).  Excerpt from a review:

Quote


...Ultimately, he attributes the cause of this mess to the Canadian “security imaginary,” that is, how Canadians’ view of their position in the world has led to their preference to spend miserly on defence as there are no attendant great national risks in so doing. For Nossal, this “imaginary” has two major effects: first, a highly permissive environment is created for Canadian politicians as voter indifference to defence issues is mirrored by an indifference to mismanagement of defence policy; and, second, a contradiction develops between the model of a military cabinet ministers might prefer and the one they are willing to fund...
https://cdainstitute.ca/book-review-no-10-roy-of-nossal-charlie-foxtrot-fixing-defence-procurement-in-canada/

More at Amazon.ca:
https://www.amazon.ca/Charlie-Foxtrot-Fixing-Defence-Procurement/dp/1459736753

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #137 on: April 30, 2018, 13:06:28 »
It is up to us the informed persons to educate people around us on the importance of defense and having a proper strategy for the replacement of major items. every voter we can educate is another small step in the right direction.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2018, 18:32:57 »
The Griffins will need replacing sooner rather than later.

Why?

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #139 on: April 30, 2018, 20:02:51 »
Why?

Yeah I don't understand this either I know they're over 20 years old but that's pretty young for the Canadian Forces. Plus every other platform in the RCAF are probably older and in more dire need of replacement

Offline Loachman

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2018, 00:09:13 »
The mid-range ones began arriving at 400 Squadron in the summer of 1996. I cannot remember when the first and last of the one hundred machines were delivered, but the average age is 22.

The first Sea King replacement programme began when? The Sea King replacement programme will end when?

There has not even been a hint of a Griffon replacement programme yet. So take the duration - or a best guess - of the whole, sorry, Sea King replacement misery and add about ten years.

One of my grandchildren may fly it, and he/she/it/whatever they'll call themselves by then isn't even born yet.

There will not be any upgrades, beyond those absolutely required to allow it to continue flying in controlled airspace. Nothing that increases performance.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2018, 07:27:36 »
There has not even been a hint of a Griffon replacement programme yet. So take the duration - or a best guess - of the whole, sorry, Sea King replacement misery and add about ten years.

Actually the RCAF briefed the Tactical Reconnaissance and Utility Helicopter (TRUH) project at the CADSI Outlook Conferences a couple of weeks ago. TRUH would replace Griffin in the early 2030s.  Sounds like a long time, but 10-12 years for a project to deliver first articles is not unheard of.

:2c:

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G2G

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #142 on: May 01, 2018, 08:50:46 »
G2G: Your keyboard must be broken. Your "3" key is wiggly and generates "1"'s.

I am sure you meant "30-32 years", right  ;)

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2018, 09:08:18 »
G2G: Your keyboard must be broken. Your "3" key is wiggly and generates "1"'s.

I am sure you meant "30-32 years", right  ;)

The CAF struggled for 10 years to equip the soldiers with boots and even then messed it up
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Offline dangerboy

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2018, 10:56:57 »
The CAF struggled for 10 years to equip the soldiers with boots and even then messed it up

You missed a zero there, we have been screwing up boots since WWI (and probably before that) https://canadaatwarblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/03/first-contingent-c-e-f-first-world-war-boots-purchase-scandal-aug-1914/
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2018, 11:05:58 »
G2G: Your keyboard must be broken. Your "3" key is wiggly and generates "1"'s.

I am sure you meant "30-32 years", right  ;)

 :rofl:

I sprinkled some Unicorn dust on it, that should fix it OGBD.   ;D

I've seen from 8 months to many decades to provide major capabilities, and a lot in between.  For TRUH, I figure early-2030s isn't bad, all things considered. :nod:

Cheers
G2G

Offline Loch Sloy!

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2018, 11:15:39 »
I was referring to this;

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-defence-acquisition-guide-2015/aerospace-systems-913.page

Quote
Replace Existing Systems


Objective

To acquire a replacement capability for the CH146 Griffon.

Requirements

The TRUH project must provide a replacement for the fleet of CH 146 Griffon helicopters with an Initial Operational Capability prior to 2030. TRUH must have the ability to transport a 3500lb load in excess of 100kms at a minimum cruise speed of 140kts. It must also be equipped with weapons for self-protection and EO/IR sensors to enable operational missions day or night.

Preliminary Estimate
•More than $1.5 billion

Anticipated Timeline
•2020 ◦Options Analysis

•2021 to 2025 ◦Definition Approval
◦Implementation Approval
◦Request for Proposal Release
◦Contract Award

•2026 to 2035 ◦Final Delivery


I'm well aware of the low (nil?) likelihood that the timeline above will actually be followed however the plan is in the works. There is staff work and money going into the project so who knows? The UH-1Z program for the USMC will be winding down in a few years, would be a pretty good time to leverage that into the TRUH program.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2018, 11:26:04 »
Why?

Because it would be the logical thing to do is to replace a piece equipment prior to it falling out of the sky on a regular basis and actually having some resale value, considering we could have the replacement 412EPI helicopters made right here in Canada and already in service with the CCG. We have a good idea of costs as well (156mil for 7). Order 10 a year, in a decade you have replaced all the Griffions, or 20 a year and do it in 5, You likely get 1-2 mil for each Griffon as well. I realize forward planning in procurement is not the Canadian way, but hey dare to dream.   

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2018, 14:51:11 »
I think it's pretty clear from those that know the military and government, that this fantasy is an absolute non starter. Canada's debt is now to the point where we can't even lease Sopwith Camels in any quantity.

If by that you mean the lowest of any G7 country, sure.

Online FSTO

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #149 on: May 01, 2018, 15:15:52 »
If by that you mean the lowest of any G7 country, sure.

Ah but JMT when it comes to Defence procurement its "We can't afford it! The cost, the cost!!"

Though when it comes to a favourite social program its "Debt and cost be damned! LETS DO IT!!!!!!"