TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)

[Eaglelord17]

One other thing I will add is I am 6’2” tall, that has a effect on what I consider a tight space.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

One other thing I will add is I am 6’2” tall, that has a effect on what I consider a tight space.

That is what did it for me. O boats had way more head room.

 

[CBH99]

And then Canada went cheap on the spare parts - and said we didn't want to buy the ones that the Brits offered us....so they sold them on the open market. Which then sold them back to Canada at a considerable mark-up in cost when it turned out we actually needed them.

Noooooooooooo way...us? Really?

Good thing that was just a one time thing & we learned from it so it won't happen again...

 

[calculus]

Two interesting videos on this purchase:

 

[HavokFour]

So now that we're buying JSMs, what are the chances the TKMS offer could have included domestic production of NSM or even possibly JSM (or JSM-SL)?

 

[KevinB]

So now that we're buying JSMs, what are the chances the TKMS offer could have included domestic production of NSM or even possibly JSM (or JSM-SL)?

Zero given that is a Kongsberg item.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Zero given that is a Kongsberg item.

But JSM is being built in the US (Virginia) for Kongsberg. Their new facility in VA employs 180 people.

 

[KevinB]

But JSM is being built in the US (Virginia) for Kongsberg. Their new facility in VA employs 180 people.

Again zero linkage to TKMS.

While the GoC is free to pursue some sort of venture with Kongsberg, it has zero linkage to TKMS.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Again zero linkage to TKMS.

While the GoC is free to pursue some sort of venture with Kongsberg, it has zero linkage to TKMS.

True

 

[KevinB]

True

There are a slew of programs that make sense for the GoC/DND encourage CDN domestic production of munitions and consumables for.

Canada has often taken worst in class options for domestic Defence production.
Giving favored status to private companies who end up getting bought out by foreign defense giants.
Closing down crown corporations that manufacture domestic defence products due to them being ‘non profitable’ as opposed to seeing them for what they are; peace time endurance of wartime needs.

 

[Czech_pivo]

There are a slew of programs that make sense for the GoC/DND encourage CDN domestic production of munitions and consumables for.

Canada has often taken worst in class options for domestic Defence production.
Giving favored status to private companies who end up getting bought out by foreign defense giants.
Closing down crown corporations that manufacture domestic defence products due to them being ‘non profitable’ as opposed to seeing them for what they are; peace time endurance of wartime needs.

We'd rather close down an unprofitable Crown Def Corp employing 5-700 people and use the 'savings' to fund free dental in the past.....

 

[KevinB]

We'd rather close down an unprofitable Crown Def Corp employing 5-700 people and use the 'savings' to fund free dental in the past.....

more like

1) sell off CC to private sector for a pittance (with no real understanding of of what that CC offers)
2) CC the lays off 75% of staff
3) CC bought by US or Uk Defense Conglomerate
4) CAF buys items at 300% of original ‘non profitable’ price.
5) Net GoC (and CAF) loss.

 

[Underway]

Again zero linkage to TKMS.

While the GoC is free to pursue some sort of venture with Kongsberg, it has zero linkage to TKMS.

True, it was not part of the bid, however...

Norway was putting their finger on the scales and Naval Strike Missile production did come up. In Newfoundland of all places. What that would look like (supplier, assembly, specific parts etc..) I have no idea. Kongsburg is exploring options.

I do agree that JSM will not be made in Canada. It is a variant of the NSM, but still a different missile.

 

[Underway]

more like

1) sell off CC to private sector for a pittance (with no real understanding of of what that CC offers)
2) CC the lays off 75% of staff
3) CC bought by US or Uk Defense Conglomerate
4) CAF buys items at 300% of original ‘non profitable’ price.
5) Net GoC (and CAF) loss.

Recently LM bought Ultra Electronics. Not a CC or anything but it was like WesCam with L3. Good product with good foreign order sheet, picked up by foreign defence giant. Happens when you are publicly traded I suppose.

 

[GR66]

True, it was not part of the bid, however...

Norway was putting their finger on the scales and Naval Strike Missile production did come up. In Newfoundland of all places. What that would look like (supplier, assembly, specific parts etc..) I have no idea. Kongsburg is exploring options.

I do agree that JSM will not be made in Canada. It is a variant of the NSM, but still a different missile.

Agreed that externally the two are different but (according to AI anyway) they share a number of the key internal systems

AI ASSISTED The Naval Strike Missile (NSM) and the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) share a high degree of commonality. The JSM is essentially an air-launched derivative of the NSM, utilizing the same core technologies, including the advanced imaging infrared seeker, autonomous target recognition, and highly accurate navigation systems.

There is also a tube-launched version of the JSM being developed:

Maritime Strike: Joint Strike Missile as armament for Type 212CD submarines? - Naval News

As part of its recently published strategic direction, "Kurs Marine," the German Navy is considering Joint Strike Missile – Submarine Launched

www.navalnews.com

According to the document, the selection of the Orka submarine armament option was decided on the basis of a “comprehensive comparison,” and the decision was made to participate in the development of the Joint Strike Missile – Submarine Launched (JSM-SL) as part of a multinational European collaboration led by Spain. This participation option, as one can read between the lines of the letter, has only recently become possible.

One of the advantages of the JSM-SL was that it can be used successfully against land targets as well as surface ships. The Joint Strike Missile (JSM) is a 400 kg air-to-surface guided missile made by the Norwegian manufacturer Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace. The JSM was developed on the basis of the proven ship- and land-based anti-ship missile Naval Strike Missile (NSM). Compared to the NSM, its range has been increased by 50 percent, and the missile has been equipped with significantly more modern electronics. The manufacturer states a range of over 350 km, although this range refers to fire from aircraft. Some user nations calculate the range of the air-launched variant at around 560 km. The missile, which has stealth characteristics, is designed to overcome even the most sophisticated air and missile defense systems. In addition to the composite construction of the fuselage, the reliance on passive sensors also makes the missile difficult to detect by enemy air defense systems.

As the Dutch Ministry of Defense further writes, the JSM-SL is part of the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) and Naval Strike Missile (NSM) product families, which have also been or are being acquired by other European armed forces. An interesting side note is that the German Armed Forces (Bundeswehr) is currently procuring both the NSM as a future missile armament for the Navy’s frigates and the JSM for the Air Force’s F-35.

According to the letter, an initial development phase lasting eighteen months is now to begin, followed by production preparation and procurement.

“The JSM-SL is being developed through multinational cooperation, with costs shared by the participating countries. Support during development and production will be provided by an international agency (OCCAR or NSPA),” the letter continues.

With a certain degree of commonality between the NSM, JSM and JSM-SL and those being able to be used by the River-Class Destroyers, F-35's and the 212CD's respectively there could be a business case for them to be produced here.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Life in a sub

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Recently LM bought Ultra Electronics. Not a CC or anything but it was like WesCam with L3. Good product with good foreign order sheet, picked up by foreign defence giant. Happens when you are publicly traded I suppose.

Could that sale be blocked on National Security grounds?

 

[Nvlgzr]

Could that sale be blocked on National Security grounds?

It was a British company but a few years ago was taken over by an US investment firm. I don’t expect Trump or congress to raise an eyebrow.

 

[KevinB]

Could that sale be blocked on National Security grounds?

All we do then is hire the people and bring them down south. It’s called Arrowing

LocMart, BAE, RTX, Boeing, GD all have venture funds. They invest in both private and public companies to grow them - many aren’t even openly acknowledged as to what they are. Not to be shady but startups tend to fizzle a lot, even with solid backers.

 

[oldcpu]

These are exciting times for the RCN. My having typed that, IMHO the RCN has its work cut out for itself in the next half dozen years, as it attempts to get ready for the Type-212CD submarines. It needs to provide qualified personnel to:
(a) Man the existing Victoria (Upholder) class to prevent a critical capability gap.
(b) Maintain the existing Victoria class as it ages into the 2030s
(c) man the project office to support subsequent negotiation with TKMS for the Type-212CD
(d) continue staffing that project office to oversee the massive multi-year procurement process
(e) recruit personnel to be trained to both man and maintain the new Type-212CD, including creation of new training pipelines
(f) monitor/support the major infrastructure changes needed at places like Halifax (or nearby), Esquimalt (or nearby), and Churchill/other for berth and along side maintenance area of these submarines
(g) support any submarine industrial offset verification directly related to submarine equipment.

I suspect there are many points not mentioned. Given the RCN is experiencig severe personnel shortages, and given that the RCN can't even man their current Victoria class of submarines, finding and training the people for the above, is a massive challenge and undertaking.

I wish the RCN all the best.