Bringing back the 19th Alberta Dragoons, split from Re: Halifax Rifles

[Dennis Ruhl]

Which war are you planning for? What military threat are you perceiving we must be ready to counter? How will one reserve armoured recce subunit tip the balance in our favour?

Have you seen any documents that define a specific military threat that support the raising of your "pet militia unit"?

The system you are working within, as the Halifax Rifles did, is a political one, not a military one.  Please do not try and say there is an historical military justification when that is not the basis of your argument.

Canada plans for wars by day-dreaming, not by manning and equipping.  We have never prepared for war until we found ourselves in one.  In the summer of 1939 our regular army had something like 3,600 soldiers, or maybe that was the complete military, I forget.  If we have no threats, why do we have a military of over 50,000 people costing an average of $400,000 each while we discuss a few militia soldiers costing maybe $10,000 each.  The most serious threat is the one we don't see coming.

As I've said the existence of militia units has always been political.  The military has always been one of the most political departments of the government.  I don't think a decision is ever made without regard to politics.  You could come up with 100 examples, I know I could.  Am I supposed to somehow be embarrassed using the system as it seems to have been intended?

All I'm talking about is the name of an existing that essentially operates as an independent squadron.  The 19th Alberta Dragoons were the 1st Division Cavalry Squadron and also perpetuate the 3rd Canadian Mounted Rifles who served in France until they were converted to infantry and disbanded.

Armoured recce?  That brings up another point.  17 or so regiments of armoured recce?  The Canadian Army in WWII had only 2 - The 12th Manitoba Dragoons and the RCDs.  The South Alberta Regiment was a divisional recce regiment in WWII and had 3 squadrons of Shermans and a recce troop of Stuarts.  The Cougars made fine tank trainers, I was sorry to see them go.  Replacements would be nice. 

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

What he said....

I swear some people would want to reform the "29th Lower York Fencibles" because they fended off some Fenian raid and are this instrumental to maintaining tradition and cohesion in today's Army.

Actually it was The Queen's Own Rifles and I think they are proud of the Battle of Ridgeway.  Although the results weren't all that positive, the Fenians withdrew.  I didn't think regimental histories were all that humourous.  The QOR have always been front and centre in the Canadian army.

 

[Old Sweat]

Actually it was The Queen's Own Rifles and I think they are proud of the Battle of Ridgeway.  Although the results weren't all that postive, the Fenians withdrew.  I didn't think regimental histories were all that humourous.  The QOR have always been front and centre in the Canadian army.

What exactly do you know about the Battle of Ridgeway?

For example, what were the approximate strengths of both sides?

What was the title of the Fenian force? What was its military status?

Which side broke and ran? Further to that, what action by the other side caused that action?

Were there any other British/Canadian forces in the area? If so, where?

For Extra Credit: Did the Queen's Own Rifles ever attempt to obtain a battle honour for Ridgeway?

 

[helpup]

I recently did cover this for my DL and, since I wrote my 750 word argumentive piece  on it will not go there again. 
Agreed this is political however my own two cents.  I will take an increase in the ORBAT vice a decrease generally done for the same political reasons. Reg or Reserves. ( Militia)

We are what we are and it is our lot to make it work. 

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Armoured recce?  That brings up another point.  17 or so regiments of armoured recce?  The Canadian Army in WWII had only 2 - The 12th Manitoba Dragoons and the RCDs.  The South Alberta Regiment was a divisional recce regiment in WWII and had 3 squadrons of Shermans and a recce troop of Stuarts.  The Cougars made fine tank trainers, I was sorry to see them go.  Replacements would be nice.

If we are going to talk about WW2 and recce lets not forget the PLDG, 7th Hussars and 14th Hussars. While we are at it, while the two armoured division recce regiments did have tanks they were Recce. I am not sure how any of that relates to the question at hand except that legacy WW2 structure seems to have greatly influenced the structure of the Reserves. We can argue about the value of the Cougar as a tank trainer, but again I am not sure how it relates. There are equipment issues that re-naming units will not solve.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

A -What exactly do you know about the Battle of Ridgeway?

B -For example, what were the approximate strengths of both sides?

C -What was the title of the Fenian force? What was its military status?

D -Which side broke and ran? Further to that, what action by the other side caused that action?

E -Were there any other British/Canadian forces in the area? If so, where?

F -For Extra Credit: Did the Queen's Own Rifles ever attempt to obtain a battle honour for Ridgeway?

A - I know it happened

B - no clue - more Fenians;  status? - mostly civil war vets

C - name - no clue

D - the Canadians heard the cry of "cavalry" and formed square and began taking casualties and retired from the field.

E - other forces - more militia on the way; British ???

F - I hoped they tried for a battle honour; there was a policy not to honour defeats but in my opinion it was an honouable defeat.

Do I get the prize?

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

If we are going to talk about WW2 and recce lets not forget the PLDG, 7th Hussars and 14th Hussars. While we are at it, while the two armoured division recce regiments did have tanks they were Recce. I am not sure how any of that relates to the question at hand except that legacy WW2 structure seems to have greatly influenced the structure of the Reserves. We can argue about the value of the Cougar as a tank trainer, but again I am not sure how it relates. There are equipment issues that re-naming units will not solve.

I have never checked out what kit the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd division recce regiments had but the 4th and 5th division recce regiments had one troop each. 

The Cougar was preferable to the 1960s pattern Jeeps that I remember.  I was never trained on Cougars but they made a big boom and militia gunners could take out man-sized targets at 600 metres.  I think they broke down a lot and the gun was too small for war but it was a gun.  The armour was too light for war but no news there.  The things were ugly and a big target and amphibious but I think you went to jail if you floated one.

 

[Old Sweat]

A - I know it happened

That is pretty basic.

B - no clue - more Fenians;  status? - mostly civil war vets

The approximate numbers were less than 500 Fenians and about 800 Canadians. The Fenians were veterans; the militia were not.

C - name - no clue

The Irish Republican Army. Despite its name, the IRA had no official status as a formed military body and any Fenians captured faced trial and on conviction execution as freebooters.

D - the Canadians heard the cry of "cavalry" and formed square and began taking casualties and retired from the field.

The Canadians had indeed formed square (actually only part of the force did so). At this point the Fenians counter-attacked the Canadian right flank, drove in 9 and 10 Companies of the QOR and assaulted the square from the crest of the ridge. The troops in the square were disorganized, short of ammunition and rattled by the sight of 9 and 10 Companies fleeing down the ridge towards them followed by green clad troops. And away they went.

E - other forces - more militia on the way; British ???

There was a strong force of a British field battery, two British infantry battalions (-) and two Canadian militia battalions a few miles away. This column had halted for a rest rather than marching to the sound of the guns. There also was a force about 100 strong made up of the Dunville Naval Brigade and the gunless Welland Canal Field Battery which had been landed to cut the Fenian line of retreat at Fort Erie. At some time during the day other forces arrived at Port Colborne and the bridges over the Welland Canal were all defended.

F - I hoped they tried for a battle honour; there was a policy not to honour defeats but in my opinion it was an honouable defeat.

In the 1920s the QOR tried to get a battle honour for Ridgeway on several occasions. The regiment once even claimed that they were superior to regular soldiers as they had the brains to break and run rather than fight it out. Eventually the authorities grew tired of being badgered and sent the regiment a short, nasty letter which ended the affair.

Do I get the prize?

What do you think?

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

What do you think?

Maybe a C.

The difference between a victory and defeat is often out of the hands of a regiment.  A great victory in the annals of the PPCLI is the Battle of Kapyong and it certainly was.  At least one historian has suggested that after defeating and forcing the retreat of an American and Korean division, the PPCLI was spared because the Chinese reached the planned extent of their advance.

I note that the RCR had a very similar battle being over-run on Hill 187 on May 2, 1953, suffering more casualties than at Kapyong and similarly retaking their positions.  No battle honour was awarded.  I can't even begin to understand the awarding of battle honours.  To me, if it's in the history books, it's a battle.  If you were there it's a battle honour.  I'm not sure that applying judgement is always fair.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I've asked this elsewhere, but its applicability remains sound in the absence of any credible military estimate for expansion or organizational reform, even the "simplistic" renaming of units and subunits that then affects command stuctures, inter alia:

"Should any regiment’s continued survival be primarily dependent on the degree of activism of its supporters?"

 

[Michael OLeary]

I can't even begin to understand the awarding of battle honours.  To me, if it's in the history books, it's a battle.  If you were there it's a battle honour.  I'm not sure that applying judgement is always fair.

Some resources for on the Canadian system of battle honours can be found on my site here: Canadian Army Battle Honours

 

[Infanteer]

For Extra Credit: Did the Queen's Own Rifles ever attempt to obtain a battle honour for Ridgeway?

Ooohh, I remember reading this one in the endnotes.  They pushed for it and were summed up for trying.  Basically it amounted to "you guys ran away, so don't ask for an honour".

As for the Fencibles and the Fenians and your "I got you" post, I just made that shit up to prove a point.  As T2B pointed out, we get fixated on old structures/units when considering current or future force structures.    "But its tradition!" some argue - in reality, if it doesn't contribute to battlefield effectiveness (which raising old reserve regiments from the days of yore doesn't), who cares?  Certainly everyone who joins after any significant change don't - they're too busy making history as opposed to dwelling on capbadges or war diaries.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I've asked this elsewhere, but its applicability remains sound in the absence of any credible military estimate for expansion or organizational reform, even the "simplistic" renaming of units and subunits that then affects command stuctures, inter alia:

"Should any regiment’s continued survival be primarily dependent on the degree of activism of its supporters?"

Renaming B Sqn SALH to the 19th Alberta Dragoons would involve ordering badges from the cadet unit supplier and having shoulder flashes done locally for $2 each or from DND's lowest bidder for $20 each.  As the unit has been an independent squadron, nothing else need change.  Some major may find himself a LCol but he wouldn't be the first LCol in the Canadian Forces whose rank exceeds his responsibilities.

I think there is a perception that a regiment is a regiment on the order of battle and positions are to be jealously guarded when most regiments are large platoon to company sized.  The reality is that there is no order of battle and if there is it would be totally ignored as in every other mobilization.  I seriously doubt that any significant study has been done regarding militia cost because it is insignificantly small in the total picture. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Mr Ruhl, do you really think that renaming the unit would take nothing more than changing the troops' shoulder titles?  Or are you hoping to convince others who haven't thought about it that it's really that simplistic?

And what about the many soldiers who have served in B Sqn SALH since 1978? What about their loyalties to Regiment and cap badge? Should that simply be swept away?  Are not their attachments to their Regiment equally valid and worthy of protection?

 

[PMedMoe]

Approximately half the population of northern Alberta lives in Edmonton.  Red Deer, Fort Mcmurray, and Grande Prairie have in excess of 50,000 people and no infantry or armoured units.  St. Albert and Sherwood Park are in the Edmonton region with similar size.  The Lloydminster area has 25,000 people and no militia unit.  There are at maybe a dozen more cities and cities with over 10,000, candidates for sub-units. Over its history the 19th Ds had units in 17 different towns.

I am not sure what western alienation has to do with anything.  I am trying to work within the system.  It just so happens that some of my friends hold high office and might appreciate what they're hearing.

So let me guess.  Are you trying to get a Reserve unit in Whitecourt, AB, (population 9,202 - 2008 Census)?

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Mr Ruhl, do you really think that renaming the unit would take nothing more than changing the troops' shoulder titles?  Or are you hoping to convince others who haven't thought about it that it's really that simplistic?

And what about the many soldiers who have served in B Sqn SALH since 1978? What about their loyalties to Regiment and cap badge? Should that simply be swept away?  Are not their attachments to their Regiment equally valid and worthy of protection?

Worthy of protection?  My vote says no.  Mind you I was there a long time ago.  It was a very odd unit compared to the Fort Garry Horse, my only comparison.  A lot of people transferred in and then transferred out.  Maybe it's changed, maybe they've gained a rudder.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

So let me guess.  Are you trying to get a Reserve unit in Whitecourt, AB, (population 9,202 - 2008 Census)?

Too small and I'm too old.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Worthy of protection?  My vote says no. 

So, in brief it's: "Screw what they have, force them to accept what they don't remember."

I am at a loss for words over that sentiment.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I am at a loss for words over that sentiment.

I thought names are irrelevant.  You can't be all that shocked.

 

[Monsoon]

Worthy of protection?  My vote says no.  Mind you I was there a long time ago.  It was a very odd unit compared to the Fort Garry Horse, my only comparison.  A lot of people transferred in and then transferred out.  Maybe it's changed, maybe they've gained a rudder.

Gad, sir! Transferred in and transferred out? Why if this alarming trend towards cross-training were to spread CF-wide, the whole system would fall apart! Imagine if an armoured reservist in Calgary were able to move to Edmonton and just up and join a unit there, like it were the most normal thing in the world! What would Major-General Isaac Brock have said about such heresy?