Bringing back the 19th Alberta Dragoons, split from Re: Halifax Rifles

[Michael OLeary]

I thought names are irrelevant.  You can't be all that shocked.

And I have, in fact, stated that names (among other attributes) are extraneous to the purposes, intents and values of the Regimental System, but this is in the context that these attributes are separate from that value system.  You offer nothing in trade for imposing this "simple name change" on a unit, no increase in relevance, no increase in operational capability within the Army's requirements structure, no purpose ... other than your personal satisfaction.  And that is not enough.

The 19th Alberta Dragoons were placed on the Supplemental Order of Battle on 31 March 1965 - 44 years ago. 

B Squadron, The South Alberta Light Horse has existed since 1978 - 31 years of service.

In my opinion, your personal desire to see the SALH cap badge and heritage stripped away has not yet been sufficiently substantiated.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Gad, sir! Transferred in and transferred out? Why if this alarming trend towards cross-training were to spread CF-wide, the whole system would fall apart! Imagine if an armoured reservist in Calgary were able to move to Edmonton and just up and join a unit there, like it were the most normal thing in the world! What would Major-General Isaac Brock have said about such heresy?

They were a reliable source of troops for the Loyal Eddies.  This was some time ago.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

And I have, in fact, stated that names (among other attributes) are extraneous to the purposes, intents and values of the Regimental System, but this is in the context that these attributes are separate from that value system.  You offer nothing in trade for imposing this "simple name change" on a unit, no increase in relevance, no increase in operational capability within the Army's requirements structure, no purpose ... other than your personal satisfaction.  And that is not enough.

Right now General Motors would pay $1 billion to have a corporate culture anything close to a regimental culture.  Much smarter people than me define elements of corporate culture as symbols, stories, heroes, slogans, and ceremonies.  I am not convinced that the symbols, stories, heroes, slogans, and ceremonies from 600 km away are as motivating as those that are home grown.  Impose Toronto regiments on Montreal or vice-versa and I'm sure there would be no problem.  They're only 600 km apart.  Just don't impose a southern Alberta regiment on northern Alberta, it's a whole other culture down there.

 

[dapaterson]

This almost seems to be a plea for small, inbred, inward looking groups.

Populations are mobile and urban today, not the reality of the 1930s.  So it's not unusual to have reserve soldiers (they are soldiers in their heart, after all, not Footguards or Hussars or Highlanders, but soldiers all) who have served in two or three or four cities, in different units.  So the influences of one place are brought to other routinely.


I am a soldier of her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada.  The rest, as they say, is noise.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Right now General Motors would pay $1 billion to have a corporate culture anything close to a regimental culture.  Much smarter people than me define elements of corporate culture as symbols, stories, heroes, slogans, and ceremonies.  I am not convinced that the symbols, stories, heroes, slogans, and ceremonies from 600 km away are as motivating as those that are home grown.  Impose Toronto regiments on Montreal or vice-versa and I'm sure there would be no problem.  They're only 600 km apart.  Just don't impose a southern Alberta regiment on northern Alberta, it's a whole other culture down there.

When was the last time you sat down with a young soldier of B Squadron, The South Alberta Light Horse and asked him or her:

"What do you miss most about the 19th Alberta Dragoons?"

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Mr Ruhl,

Understand something very clearly. I have read through this whole thing and found your opinion all over the place. You switch subjects like people change socks. You seem to be taking any stance that is wholly opposite anything else that's said and have changed your own opinion while arguing against yourself.

On the internet, we call that trolling. It is against our rules. Rules the Mods here WILL enforce.

I suggest, sir, you go and read our site guidelines and pay particular attention to the rules about escalating disturbances and trolling, and the consequences of the Warning System. You obviously missed them when you clicked the box agreeing to abide by them.


Milnet.ca Staff

 

[helpup]

Mr Ruhl,

Understand something very clearly. I have read through this whole thing and found your opinion all over the place. You switch subjects like people change socks. You seem to be taking any stance that is wholly opposite anything else that's said and have changed your own opinion while arguing against yourself.

Milnet.ca Staff

Thanks recceguy, I thought I was the only one who was lost tracking Ruhls, opinion. 


Anyhow if this topic is going to continue on the reserves/militia in general vice the Halifax Rifles ( and the orriginal post is a very old one ) then is it not as suggested earlier time for a split.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

This almost seems to be a plea for small, inbred, inward looking groups.

I am a soldier of her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada.  The rest, as they say, is noise.

Last time I heard all regiments have the same training.

Why not a soldier of the world, not the small inbred Canadian Army?

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Mr Ruhl,

Understand something very clearly. I have read through this whole thing and found your opinion all over the place. You switch subjects like people change socks. You seem to be taking any stance that is wholly opposite anything else that's said and have changed your own opinion while arguing against yourself.

On the internet, we call that trolling. It is against our rules. Rules the Mods here WILL enforce.

I suggest, sir, you go and read our site guidelines and pay particular attention to the rules about escalating disturbances and trolling, and the consequences of the Warning System. You obviously missed them when you clicked the box agreeing to abide by them.


Milnet.ca Staff

Again I apologize.  The extraneous topics were introduced by others and I shouldn't have delved into them with so much energy distracting from my central thesis. 

I am not sure that I have changed my opinion.  I think that celebrating a regiment that put 2 units into a war and had hundreds of casualties means something more than celebrating a unit that had a real tough Milcon 2002.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

One thing that has constantly amazed me since I became a member here years ago is how, to the point of psychoticness , some people are attached to a name. I spent 8 of my 10 years in 2RCHA and if tomorrow they decided to call it "The Second LEO Regt." [Lobbers of Exploding Ordnance}, I could care less,...its just a name, folks, a friggin' name!

The people matter....

 

[Michael OLeary]

I think that celebrating a regiment that put 2 units into a war and had hundreds of casualties means something more than celebrating a unit that had a real tough Milcon 2002.

The South Alberta Light Horse

• 1954.09.28  The South Alberta Light Horse (29th Armoured Regiment)
  formed with HQ at Calgary, Alta., by amalgamation of The South Alberta Regiment, 41st Anti-Tank Regiment (Self-Propelled), RCA, and 68th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RCA
• 1958.05.19 The South Alberta Light Horse
• 1959 HQ moved to Medicine Hat
• 19uu reduced to A Sqn at Medicine Hat
• 1978 B Sqn re-formed at Edmonton

Battle Honours [combined battle honours of 15th Alberta Light Horse and The South Alberta Regiment]

North West Canada 1885

The Great War: Mount Sorrel, Somme 1916 '18, Arras 1917, Vimy 1917, Hill 70, Ypres 1917, Passchendaele, Amiens, Cambrai 1918, France and Flanders 1915-18

The Second World War: Falaise, Falaise Road, The Laison, St. Lambert-sur-Dives, Moerbrugge, The Scheldt, Woensdrecht, The Lower Maas, Kapelsche Veer, The Rhineland, The Hochwald, Veen, Twente Canal, Bad Zwischenahn, North-West Europe, 1944-1945 (awarded 1958 for service of The South Alberta Regiment)

19th Alberta Dragoons

• 1946.04.01  19th Armoured Car Regiment (Edmonton Fusiliers)
  formed with HQ at Edmonton, Alta., by amalgamation of 19th Alberta Dragoons, and The Edmonton Fusiliers
• 1949.02.04 19th Alberta Armoured Car Regiment
• 1954.11.01 19th Alberta Dragoons (19th Armoured Car Regiment)
• 1958.05.19 19th Alberta Dragoons
• 1965.03.31 disbanded (placed on Supplemental Order of Battle)

Battle Honours [combined battle honours of 19th Alberta Dragoons, and The Edmonton Fusiliers, with the following emblazoned:]

The Great War: Ypres 1915 '17, Somme 1916, Arras 1917 '18, Vimy 1917, Hill 70, Amiens, Hindenburg Line, Cambrai 1918, Pursuit to Mons, France and Flanders 1915-18

The Second World War: [none]


Both regiments are the result of amalgamations and both carry battle honours through perpetuation. You bring no honour to the 19th Alberta Dragoons by insulting the heritage and honours of the South Alberta Light Horse.

 

[Loachman]

We could re-activate every dormant Canadian regiment that ever existed, and de-amalgamate every current-day combo regiment. I'm sure that we still have enough troops in the Regular and Reserve Forces combined to be able to have nothing smaller than a section or equivalent wearing each cap badge. Think how many more LCols we could employ - promotions for everyone all around.

Why should your pet favourite regiment get special treatment over every other one?

Where does it stop?

Bring back the Perths!

My major effort for the next while is going to be getting the Monty Python Parrot Sketch out of my head...

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Both regiments are the result of amalgamations and both carry battle honours through perpetuation. You bring no honour to the 19th Alberta Dragoons by insulting the heritage and honours of the South Alberta Light Horse.

No insult.  In the whole schmozzle only 3 units that actually fought in France in WWI are perpetuated.  The SALH perpetuates the 31st (Alberta) Battalion.  The 19th Alberta Dragoons served ander their own name plus they perpetuate the 3rd Regiment Canadian Mounted Rifles which served maybe 6 months in France until it was converted to infantry and merged into other CMR battalions.

The 31st Battalion was also perpetuated by North Alberta Regiment, long dead.  The SALH is a wonderful regiment with an excellent war record.  It's just that it is a record of a regiment 600 km away.

 

[Teflon]

Dennis Ruhl

Why not a soldier of the world, not the small inbred Canadian Army?


inbred Canadian Army?

There is an inbred here you T***, but I can assure you it isn't us!

(Mods - I gladly wear the warning if you consider it required but that statement is way too far for me!)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Warning??..methinks not.

 

[Michael OLeary]

So, this remark:

I think that celebrating a regiment that put 2 units into a war and had hundreds of casualties means something more than celebrating a unit that had a real tough Milcon 2002.

wasn't insulting?  Where you claim that the SALH's notable achievements equate to attending Militia exercises, while "your pet Militia regiment", the 19th Alberta Dragoons, "put 2 units into a war"?


Firstly: Yes, it is insulting, to every soldier of the SALH, including those of B Sqn since 1978.  You know, those soldiers you expect would be happy to be rebadged for your personal pleasure.

Secondly:  The 19th Alberta Dragoons did not "put 2 units into a war", it provided one cavalry squadron and perpetuated other units of the First World War. The 19th Alberta Dragoons initially provided a separately badged volunteer squadron, the 1st Divisional Cavalry Squadron, that unit later became A Sqn, The Canadian Corps Cavalry Regiment (in 1916), and then it became A Sqn, The Canadian Light Horse (in 1917).

The 19th Alberta Dragoons perpetuated the 3rd Regiment Canadian Mounted Rifles, 9th Battalion CEF, 66th Battalion CEF, 138th Battalion CEF, and 202nd Battalion CEF.

Perpetuation is an important distinction, though one that has been greatly misunderstood. For more on the concept of perpetuation, see Perpetuation and the Centenary of the Great War


You have yet to make a militarily suportable argument for your desire to rebadge B Sqn SALH, to the 19th ALberta Dragoons.  While actions such as the return of the Halifax Rifles (or your own proposal) are widely admitted to be politically driven decisions rather than military ones, if you are seeking widespread support here, you may want to consider trying to form credible military arguments.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Interesting.....

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2008/09/06/why-reactivate-the-halifax-rifles.aspx

Dennis Ruhl  September 13, 2008 6:33 PM

Until 1945 the regular force's function was to train the militia.  Somehow I bet that a PPCLI serrgeant heading on his fourth tour in Afghanistan isn't objecting to more militia.  Generally militia do a tour and go away.  Increasing regular army size means in all liklihood paying them for 20 or 30 years.  When I was in the militia, when the budget ran out and pay stopped, everyone still showed up.  Militia is the best bargain for Canadian taxpayers and brings the military home to communities where it is otherwise foreign.

 

[X-mo-1979]

We could re-activate every dormant Canadian regiment that ever existed, and de-amalgamate every current-day combo regiment. I'm sure that we still have enough troops in the Regular and Reserve Forces combined to be able to have nothing smaller than a section or equivalent wearing each cap badge. Think how many more LCols we could employ - promotions for everyone all around.

Why should your pet favourite regiment get special treatment over every other one?

Where does it stop?

Bring back the Perths!

My major effort for the next while is going to be getting the Monty Python Parrot Sketch out of my head...

Agreed 100%.
If we are activating old regiments why don't we put the 155th heavy Nfld Arty back on as well?However they were NOT Canadian....see how things change over a mere 60 YEARS!Things change,why would be bring back retired regiments that would exist as a section?And a  lot of brass making money.
Why not have the NFLD regiment attached to the Brits with Brit equipment,THAT was only 60 years ago to.

Last time I heard stuff like this we were drunk and I was a pte and was forced to listen to old ramblings from poeople who were so out of touch that they occasionally woke up thinking they were in Bergen Hohe.

(And yes I have been to Bergen)

 

[McG]

Dennis Ruhl,
The Land Force Reserve does not exist for the glory of its regiments.  In fact, regimental glory is not a guiding purpose for any element of the Canadian Forces.

We exist to meet the domestic and international defence needs of Canada.  We are structured, organized, trained and equipped to meet those needs as best as we are able to anticipate their existence.  Units & regiments exist, in the regular force and in the reserves, to fill some specifically defined capability requirement.  If there is no military requirement for the unit, then the unit does not need to exist.

We do not need more over-ranked unit COs & RSMs presiding over micro-units.
We do not need more units too small for effective collective training.
We do not need to fund new capbadges, shoulder flashes & buttons for the glory of another regiment.
We do not need the 19th Alberta Dragoons simply for the glory of the 19th Alberta Dragoons.

We need units & sub-units filling roles and providing capabilities that contribute toward the overall CF capability to provide for Canada’s defence.

If you have an argument based on a military requirement, then by all means try to convince us why we need another regiment in Alberta.  Otherwise, I might suggest you simply accept that you and your position are irrelevant to the Canadian Forces, to the Army and to the Reserves.  If you are going to keep going, you will need to accept that your desire is an issue larger than a single historic regiment.  You will first need to address the required roles & capabilities of the reserve force, convince us of a deficiency and show how some regimental re-alignment will fix or reduce this deficiency.  You might want to start here:  http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/24381.0.html

 

[Michael OLeary]

I think that celebrating a regiment that put 2 units into a war and had hundreds of casualties means something more than celebrating a unit that had a real tough Milcon 2002.

I have been trying to establish what casualties you are referring to when you state the 19th Alberta Dragoons had "hundreds of casualties".

I have consulted the Advanced Search page at the Canadian Virtual War Memorial.  The 19th Alberta Dragoons is not listed as a unit in their database.

I then tried these searches:

Regiment:  Canadian Corps Cavalry Regiment
24 records found.

Regiment:  Canadian Light Horse
64 records found.

Of course, those latter searches would also include the other squadrons, not just the one fielded by the 19th Alberta Dragoons.

Can you provide a source for the Roll of Honour you are referencing?