Bringing back the 19th Alberta Dragoons, split from Re: Halifax Rifles

[Towards_the_gap]

dapaterson has elucidated my point in a much more literate manner.

The question remains, does this idea enhance the Operational Effectiveness of the Army, and does it do so efficiently.

I would argue, wholeheartedly, no, for the same reasons dapaterson pointed out. And would add that there are far more important things to worry about than capbadges, collar dogs and all the accoutrements needed to rename a unit that seems to be doing fine in its current incarnation.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Perpetuating the myth that a unit of 100 can create a LCol and CWO every 3 years does no one any favours.

I don't know about all militia regiments but I can comment about a couple from 25 years ago.  One major had 20 years in the RCD retiring as captain due for promotion.  Another taught at a university and spent his summers with the brigade in Germany, a captain whose occupation escapes me did the same.  A third major was a school teacher who had served as RSM spent every summer for the previous 15 years doing militia duty.  Another regiment with which I am familiar had major, later LCol who was a Canadian and was ex-British Army and made his living as a federal security agent.  Another officer was a career ex-British Army Sandhurst graduate.  Both these guys had served in Northern Ireland and one had the privilege of being shot at by East-Germans.  Maybe it's different today but in 2 regiments all the majors and most of the captains would have made fine COs.  Not one was wet behind the ears.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I don't know about all militia regiments but I can comment about a couple from 25 years ago. 

The state of units in 1984 is irrelevant to a discussion about reorganizing the Reserves in 2009.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't know about all militia regiments but I can comment about a couple from 25 years ago.  One major had 20 years in the RCD retiring as captain due for promotion.  Another taught at a university and spent his summers with the brigade in Germany, a captain whose occupation escapes me did the same.  A third major was a school teacher who had served as RSM spent every summer for the previous 15 years doing militia duty.  Another regiment with which I am familiar had major, later LCol who was a Canadian and was ex-British Army and made his living as a federal security agent.  Another officer was a career ex-British Army Sandhurst graduate.  Both these guys had served in Northern Ireland and one had the privilege of being shot at by East-Germans.   Maybe it's different today but in 2 regiments all the majors and most of the captains would have made fine COs.  Not one was wet behind the ears.

You're living in the past. It IS different today! And you are out of touch with the real world as it stands concerning the CF. Reg or Reserve. YOU are going to change nothing.  :deadhorse:

Jesus wept. Let it go and go have a drink with your crones in the Association. :brickwall:

 

[Towards_the_gap]

  Maybe it's different today

EDITED cause recceguy beat me to it with the witty reply of ''IT IS'' and I didn't see it.

Cold warriors are one thing. Being shot at by East Germans is certainly a good bar story. But it is no longer relevant.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Cold warriors are one thing. Being shot at by East Germans is certainly a good bar story. But it is no longer relevant.

The UK lost 705 soldiers in Northen Ireland and patroling the East German border wasn't necessarily all giggles.  We had a Vietnam vet - he had better bar stories.  I was trying to show that militia units attracted talented people.  I can't imagine that they don't still.

 

[dapaterson]

We should be careful not to dismiss any "old" experience out of hand.  There is value to things we trained for before - throwing it all away just because "it's so 1980s (or even 1970s)" means we can repeat easily avoided mistakes.  There are valuable tactical and strategic lessons from the Cold War that may not seem to have immediate application now, but may well be needed in another situation - try to find the Army's interest in IEDs and COIN in July 2001, if you can.

Re: unit succession.

Having a steady influx of experienced officers and senior NCOs from the Regular Force or foreign militaries is fine - but it's not every unit that gets them.  (on a tangent: the Army does a poor job of internal recruiting, convincing soldiers leaving the Regular Force to continue on a part-time basis with the Reserves.  A low-cost, high payoff strategy would be to have a full-time Reserve recruiter in each ASG, tasked with encouraging and assisting those retiring from the Reg F in joining Reserve units, vice the current system where one of the 1,279 questions asked by the release clerk is "wanna join the Reserves Y/N"). 

Without an influx of outsiders, given traditional rates of attrition, you need to bring in about three to five OCdts each year to have breadth and depth in succession for the CO (as a LCol).  Few units do so, resulting in a weak pool to draw from and often a linear succession plan - if Fred gets a job out of town or John quits to spend more time with his family, there's no one to substitute.  Make some of those units commanded by Majs (a reasonable rank to command the 80-100 of many units) and the pressure is reduced significantly, and there is more time to provide depth of experience.  Better still, that seasoned Maj will then make a better LCol, and command a group approaching 400 soldiers (geography will always play a part in limiting the span of control).

 

[SARSgt]

Last night I attended the 19th AB Dragoons 2009 Annual Cadet Review, The Cadet corps is doing very well, The Reviewing Officer last night was Col Arnie Mottershead, who was a serving officer in the 19th AD in the 50's and 60's. Col Mottershead is extremely proud of "his" Corps!

I assisted Reg Hodgson in bringing a Staghound Armoured car and a Lynx Armoured Scout car to their parade. Col Mottershead had a great ride and thoroughly enjoyed his night with the Dragoons. They have a proud history and they ably perpetuate the regimental traditions, uniforms and esprit de corps of their Milita Parent Regiment.

The South Alberta Light Horse have recently applied and have been granted an amalgamation with the 19th AB Dragoons by DHH so that their history and lineage will not be forgotten. Please see the SALH Website at www.salh.net for further details. The History of the 19th AB Dragoons is entwined with our predecessor Units, the SAR had a company/later a Sqn of soldiers made up from the 19 AD.

The SALH soldiers of today proudly wear the cap badge of one their early regiments, the 15th Light Horse. Many soldiers transfer between Medicine Hat and Edmonton for Schooling, Employment and personal reasons. When we go on exercise together A Sqn from Medicine Hat and B Sqn from Edmonton form C Sqn for administrative and tactical training. We proudly embrace the traditions of the Dragoons and the SAR and the 15th Light Horse as well as the myriad of other units we perpetuate.

I have served the SALH for 20 years, I have been on Operations in the Balkans and Afghanistan and the reason I have stayed in the Reserves/Militia is the "Regimental Family" atmosphere we enjoy. Wether my cap badge or collar dogs have a 15th Light Horse Antelope, SAR AB Shield or the Horse of the Dragoons, I serve the Queen, My country and those who cannot defend themselves, badges and names are irrelevant.

The 19th Ab Dragoons will not be stood up again, neither will they be forgotten.

Sgt McCue
RHQ
SALH

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Wether my cap badge or collar dogs have a 15th Light Horse Antelope, SAR AB Shield or the Horse of the Dragoons, I serve the Queen, My country and those who cannot defend themselves, badges and names are irrelevant.

The 19th Ab Dragoons will not be stood up again, neither will they be forgotten.

Badges and names irrelevant - sure.  I think that's part of my argument.  If a unit exists, why not a local historical unit that our grandfathers went to war in?

While the SAR had a company of soldiers from the 19th Alberta Dragoons, it also had some from The Edmonton Fusiliers, The Calgary Regiment, The 15th Alberta Light Horse, and the SAR itself.  It was a composite regiment actually formed in Edmonton and were it not infantry at the time may very well have been named the 19th Alberta Dragoons.

In its history The 19th Alberta Dragoons was represented in 18 northern Alberta communities and Whitehorse.  It went to war as the 19th Alberta Dragoons and the Vegreville sqn helped form the 3rd Canadian Mounted Rifles which they perpetuated.  The 3rd CMR spent over 6 months in France before it was converted to infantry and disbanded.

The 19th Alberta Dragoons was one of the strongest armoured regiments in Canada with over 200 soldiers when it was stood down in 1964.  That it was not revived in 1978 seems more than a coincidence as Bud Olsen, a Liberal cabinet minister, was The South Alberta Light Horse's honourary colonel.  I suspect that it was the South Alberta Light Horse that was saved from extinction.

While the Maritime provinces has just slightly more people than northern Alberta and they can maintain 9 armoured or infantry regiments/battalions in 23 locations while northern Alberta has 2 units in 1 location there is certainly room for a regional armored regiment.  Fort McMurray, Grande Prairie, Red Deer, Sherwood Park, and St. Albert all have over 50,000 people and no infanry/armoured unit.  Camrose has 16,000, Lloydminster has 27,000, Fort Saskatchewan has 15,000, Spruce Grove has 20,000, and Leduc has 17,000.  I don't know that all 10 cities would support a reserve unit but cities that size do elsewhere.

It is not as if northern Alberta lacks historical regiments aside from the Loyal Eddies or the 19th Dragoons.  The Edmonton Fusiliers were folded into the 19th Dragoons in 1946 and the North Alberta Regiment that shared perpetuation of the 31st Battalion with the SAR was disbanded in 1936.  Through accidents of history southen Alberta has maintained 3 historical regiment while northern Alberta has maintained 1 only.

They won't be stood up?  Never say never.