CAF Combat boots policy 2005-2018

[PuckChaser]

I get the feeling that if the boot issue gets solved then the current CDS will consider his career a success!

Considering the absolute failure boots have been throughout the Afghan conflict, he'd probably be right.

As a Navy guy, imagine Clothing Stores never having stock of boots for your NCDs, the style of boot changed 5 times in 15 years, and whatever boots you do get are woefully inadequate for shipboard life (they slip on metal when wet, melt when in fire situations or that they disintegrate in 3 weeks due to sea water). Then you buy your own boots to be able to do your job and are told you'll be charged if you wear them again. Add in a splash of issued boots destroying feet/knees/ankles, and you'll know what the Army has gone through.

 

[RocketRichard]

All good points. Had a soldier wear his shitty issue zipper boots, big toe came through the boot and zipper broke so he bought his own boots as there were no issue boots available.  Hurt his foot training and was told he may not be covered as the boots weren't issue.  Sigh...

Considering the absolute failure boots have been throughout the Afghan conflict, he'd probably be right.

As a Navy guy, imagine Clothing Stores never having stock of boots for your NCDs, the style of boot changed 5 times in 15 years, and whatever boots you do get are woefully inadequate for shipboard life (they slip on metal when wet, melt when in fire situations or that they disintegrate in 3 weeks due to sea water). Then you buy your own boots to be able to do your job and are told you'll be charged if you wear them again. Add in a splash of issued boots destroying feet/knees/ankles, and you'll know what the Army has gone through.

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

I’ve purchase my own boots since 2008, like most of us at the Sqn. Never was I told I couldn’t wear them. My wife is a physiotherapist and the first thing she said when she saw the Air Force issued boots was not to wear those, they’ll destroy your feet, knees and back. Everyone’s feet are different and I’m a strong believer that you should be comfortable wearing the footwear that is right for you.

As for not being covered, I can personally testify that having been through a VAC claim, including the redress process, never was I asked if I was wearing issued kit, but again every cases are different and maybe someone may share a different story.

 

[FSTO]

Considering the absolute failure boots have been throughout the Afghan conflict, he'd probably be right.

As a Navy guy, imagine Clothing Stores never having stock of boots for your NCDs, the style of boot changed 5 times in 15 years, and whatever boots you do get are woefully inadequate for shipboard life (they slip on metal when wet, melt when in fire situations or that they disintegrate in 3 weeks due to sea water). Then you buy your own boots to be able to do your job and are told you'll be charged if you wear them again. Add in a splash of issued boots destroying feet/knees/ankles, and you'll know what the Army has gone through.

We had an issue after they got rid of the ankle boots. The first replacement sucked massively but lately (at least when I last sailed) they weren't that bad. I'm sure a current sailor will come here and tell me I'm out to lunch with that comment! ;D

 

[TQMS]

Straight from the PPT given to the Army Council and avalible on the DIN.

"Ref: CDS meeting with CCA and ADM(Mat) on 13 June.
Outcome:
Approval of 3 phased approach.
Rapid implementation of an interim policy to allow soldiers to buy boots of their choice.
“implement by next Friday”

CA / ADM(Mat)  Approved phased approach

Short Term (asap to summer 2019)
Allow CAF members to obtain boots of their choice using simple criteria to be defined.
Similar to brassiere and undergarment policy.
LOTBs remain available.

Medium Term (summer 2019 to fall 2021)
Allow CAF members to obtain boots of their choice based on a prequalified list with industry engagement.
Supply chain provides General Purpose Boot (GPB) as initial issue and for operational contingency.

Long Term (beyond fall 2021)
Remove operational footwear from the DND supply chain by leveraging OCFC2."


"Timeline
20 - 21 June: Presentation to Army Council.
25 - 26 June: Boots WG  (CA G4 / ADM(Mat) co-chaired)
4 July: Back brief to CCA on WG outcome / COA development.
9 -13 July: Vector check with CDS (CCA and ADM(MAT), including draft CANFORGEN.
9 - 13 July: CANFORGEN circulated for comment.
16 July:  CANFORGEN published."

 

[PuckChaser]

Holy crap, common sense.

I can even skip them right to medium term, just use the US Army's AR670-1 requirements. https://www.propper.com/blog/do-your-boots-meet-AR-670-1/ No need to reinvent the wheel here.

1. Tan or coyote in color
2. 8 to 10 inches in height
3. Made of tan or coyote flesh-side out cattle hide leather
4. Plain toe
5. Soles match the color of the tan or coyote upper materials
6. Rubber and polyether polyurethane are the only outsole materials that are authorized
7. Sole not to exceed 2 inches in height, when measured from the bottom of the outsole, and will not extend up the back of the heel or boot or over the top of the toe
8. Exterior of the boot upper will not contain mesh but will be constructed of either all leather or a combination of leather and non-mesh fabric

 

[TQMS]

The US model is referenced and shared on the Combat Boot Working Group site.

 

[Rheostatic]

In case, like me, you're curious what OCFC2 means:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-defence-acquisition-guide-2015/joint-and-other-systems-517.page

 

[ballz]

I'll be anxiously checking the CANFORGENs on Monday.... and until I see it then still consider this RUMINT (which they've been surprisingly good at keeping on the down-low) and not at the point of actively shopping for a pair of boots yet.

I've felt Vance has had a lot of big ideas and that it seemed to me he hadn't come to realize he won't be CDS nearly long enough, nor will anybody be in one position long enough, for implementing 90% of them. This would certainly redeem that a bit in my eyes, although I'd be curious to know how much the CDS had or didn't have to do with it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Going on year 5 or 6 of having to buy my own boots thanks to orders that are lost, wrong sizes ordered, wrong sizes recieved.

This sounds great but I'll believe it when I see it. Two years ago I heard the army rsm say camelbaks would be issued to everyone and non of that deployment only bullshit. Guess whats still deployment only.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

All good points. Had a soldier wear his shitty issue zipper boots, big toe came through the boot and zipper broke so he bought his own boots as there were no issue boots available.  Hurt his foot training and was told he may not be covered as the boots weren't issue.  Sigh...

This drives me.  Who told him that, his CofC?  'Cause DVA doesn't even ask that crap?  "Was the injury related to a military duty performed on military time" are the key elements.  I'm a 'disability pension - monthly payment for life' type and DVA never asked any question about kit being worn.  They didn't even ask me if the parachute was 'issued', that might have been the cause of my f&&ked up landing after all, right?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

although I'd be curious to know how much the CDS had or didn't have to do with it.

Not sure he'd know if the LOTPs were good/garbage...can't find a picture of him wearing them, but the ones in this pic look comfy.

https://army.ca/forums/threads/118575/post-1469239.html#msg1469239  *Leading by example* I guess. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's not just the Army who issued less than ideal boots. 

I just got the list of approved LPO boots from my Wg Supply a few weeks ago...none of them are full leather.  Boots are part of ALSE to flyers and I don't like the idea of nylon boots melting to my feet.  The Supply Manual says the special / special size footwear should match the specs of the issued ones where available.  So, if they are 'available' and I could get them before, why were they removed from the list?

Simple answer is cost.  I've asked for the full leather version to be approved. We'll wait and see what happens next week - I'm also the Sqn ASLEO. 

 

[PuckChaser]

might have been the cause of my f&&ked up landing after all, right?

That was just a feet and knees together issue. The Army says that solves all the injury issues with CT1/CT2...  :rofl:

 

[Quirky]

It's not just the Army who issued less than ideal boots. 

I just got the list of approved LPO boots from my Wg Supply a few weeks ago...none of them are full leather.  Boots are part of ALSE to flyers and I don't like the idea of nylon boots melting to my feet.  The Supply Manual says the special / special size footwear should match the specs of the issued ones where available.  So, if they are 'available' and I could get them before, why were they removed from the list?

Simple answer is cost.  I've asked for the full leather version to be approved. We'll wait and see what happens next week - I'm also the Sqn ASLEO.

Only approved LPO boots are now Red Wings and Magnums(these are apparently discontinued now?) at the Wing. Swats no longer approved since they have the side mesh, zippers also not allowed. Haven’t worn issued garbage since my 3s and now wear Red Wings that don’t dig the safety toe into my feet.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well, based on what you just said, the 'approved boots' for RCAF aren't a nationally controlled list, because the list I have is different. 

There are the ones I have been getting for a decade now:  https://magnumbootscanada.ca/products/stealth-force-8-0-leather-waterproof-ct-cp-boots

They're not on my Wings list. 

There are:  https://magnumbootscanada.ca/products/stealth-force-8-0-ct-cp-boots

Same boots except the full leather vice nylon/leather combo. 

This is the problem, when you have Supply Techs deciding what boots people are approved to get who don't consider things like ALSE requirements and base things on cost, etc.  Why are people 'not allowed' to go buy their own boots?  Because they might not provide the same protection the issued ones do...the Air Force boot specs are detailed in the Flight Comment article attached below.

Just like the *approved* Magnums don't.  Nylon isn't known for its fire resistant properties.  I'll wait to see what comes back with my request for the full leather model, and then address it if required up my Sqn and the Div ALSE CofC.

Then my next question will be...who made and approved this "list" of boots that don't meet the same requirements as the issued boots do.

I'm hoping this 'boot allowance' program goes out pan-CAF if it does happen, but being that we can't get flight suits, survival knives and other BASIC items right now (one of my guys couldn't get flying gloves for pete sakes)...I'm not hopeful.

Question Quirky - Red Wings...what model are approved where you're at?  http://www.redwingsafety.com/safety-boots

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That was just a feet and knees together issue. The Army says that solves all the injury issues with CT1/CT2...  :rofl:

Mine was a 'coming in for a front-left', shoulder load and ruck decided to anchor in some brambles on Buxton at the last second...that turned my front-left into a *straight backwards heels-ass* into the little ditch/gulley on the DZ.  Definitely not my favorite day in the green machine...

But, DVA never asked me what boots I was wearing were civie pattern or issued, or if my gitch was issued or not (it wasn't...remember the old boxers??). 

 

[Quirky]

Question Quirky - Red Wings...what model are approved where you're at?  http://www.redwingsafety.com/safety-boots

http://www.redwingsafety.com/safety-boot/3512-safe-us/mens-8-inch-boot-black-8-inch-boot-black

Magnums and swats were on the list at one point too, but one month the requirements changed and now all you can get are Red Wings. I’m pretty sure it’s because LPOs are done at one store in town, who decides which models to carry. Its a privately owned clothing store so the CF can only order what they offer, right now it’s only Red Wings and whatever magnums are left in stock. The Red Wings I got were also marked up $50 over MSRP, not any special sizing either.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

copy, thanks.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

http://www.redwingsafety.com/safety-boot/3512-safe-us/mens-8-inch-boot-black-8-inch-boot-black

Magnums and swats were on the list at one point too, but one month the requirements changed and now all you can get are Red Wings. I’m pretty sure it’s because LPOs are done at one store in town, who decides which models to carry. Its a privately owned clothing store so the CF can only order what they offer, right now it’s only Red Wings and whatever magnums are left in stock. The Red Wings I got were also marked up $50 over MSRP, not any special sizing either.

Red Wings are nice, but not that nice.