CAF Combat boots policy 2005-2018

[armyvern]

BTW, footwear has been broken for eons ... every sup tech knows it.  There's not a sup tech I know who does not believe the only proper fix is a "boot allowance".  My posts here from 2003ish will indicate that has been my position for over a decade now.  But, I have also posted the reasons why that will never happen despite it's requirement - and no one in DND or the CAF will change those reasons.

Believe you me, the broken footwear system (and shoddy boots themselves) is just as frustrating for us suppies.  We do not get off on fucking around the troops.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It is "her" policy in that it is the one she has to follow.  "Our" (IE: Supply's policy) is devolved from the medical side of the house for medical footwear chits.  They work hand-in-hand.  You just took her too "literally".

Oh.  Well, all I know is the Physio folks I always end up seeing say they don't get why I need a new chit, and I have to 'schedule an appointment' just to get to see them, which was seen as a waste of their time.  Supply says the one I had was older than 2 years...so off I went.  I am just the monkey in the middle.  ;D

And, you would also recognize her from our time in Gagetown as she was my "footwear" Cpl there ... think back for a visual!!  I trained her well.  ;D

Same last name then?  I am drawing a complete blank.  As soon as I got issued my first pair of reading glasses my memory started going...

Now that you mention it...the email was something I could have pictured you writing though.  >  You could almost sense where the swearing was in the first draft, but then removed.  ^-^

BTW, footwear has been broken for eons ... every sup tech knows it.  There's not a sup tech I know who does not believe the only proper fix is a "boot allowance".  My posts here from 2003ish will indicate that has been my position for over a decade now.  But, I have also posted the reasons why that will never happen despite it's requirement - and no one in DND or the CAF will change those reasons.

Believe you me, the broken footwear system (and shoddy boots themselves) is just as frustrating for us suppies.  We do not get off on fucking around the troops.

Aside from 2 individuals I've dealt with in the past, I believe that.  I mentioned in a post above, the counter staff are doing the job the way they are told to and take lots of the flak from mbrs.  I've seen it and advised people to talk to the 2 I/c or Clothing Supervisor, who can explain the 'whys' and other stuff. 

People need to remember that IF Supply has the item you need and IF it is on your SOI, they will issue it to you most of the time.  If they can't, they've usually been told not to by some HHQ.

Clothing Stores take the brunt of the heat from the individual members who come in.  If its a Wing, a majority of your Ops community are officers, SNCOs and WOs.  It is usually Cpls and Pte's are the counter who have to say "No/I can't/we don't have any/etc" and take the shit for the policies someone far removed from the operational world has implemented (and to be fair, sometimes they have no choice either). 

Members who are unhappy need to remember, the sup techs at the counter aren't dictating policy, they are doing their jobs in the left and right of arcs they are allowed to.  If you are unhappy, don't stand at the counter and bitch at them.  Ask to see the Clothing Stores 2 I/c, or Clothing Stores Supervisor.  :2c:

 

[TCM621]

I have been using after market boots for more than a decade and the supply system has paid for them. They are issued so I have never understood why I can't be entitled to an exchange when they where out like everyone else? Instead they send me to physio who have nothing to do with the reason I need special boots. I always get them but it ends up wasting a bunch of everyone's time.

 

[Quirky]

I find it ridiculous that you need to have a medical "excuse" to wear the nicer boots. My feet fit perfectly fine in the issued garbage, but they hurt everyday walking around on hard floors. I'm almost five years on my "illegal" magnum safety boots without soreness or unnecessary pain. The magums are exactly the same as what mostly everyone that is on a chit wears. So I'm supposed to wear the crap that gives me  foot and some days, knee, soreness because I can? I'll spend $200 every 5 years not to walk around in pain, I'd rather prevent a medical issue, not adapt to it.

 

[armyvern]

I have been using after market boots for more than a decade and the supply system has paid for them. They are issued so I have never understood why I can't be entitled to an exchange when they where out like everyone else? Instead they send me to physio who have nothing to do with the reason I need special boots. I always get them but it ends up wasting a bunch of everyone's time.

Well, don't keep blaming the supply system. There's more than just us involved in it.  The boots suck; we get it.  All the bitching in the world isn't going to get a boot allowance though. 

I'm really not going to sit here and post all the myriad of outside influences involved in footwear as I've posted them all umpteen times before on this site; they haven't changed.

Everyone just keep on blaming supply though; we've got big shoulders and will bear the brunt of your ire with the shitty boots ... the same shitty boots we get to wear. 

 

[BinRat55]

I find it ridiculous that you need to have a medical "excuse" to wear the nicer boots. My feet fit perfectly fine in the issued garbage, but they hurt everyday walking around on hard floors. I'm almost five years on my "illegal" magnum safety boots without soreness or unnecessary pain. The magums are exactly the same as what mostly everyone that is on a chit wears. So I'm supposed to wear the crap that gives me  foot and some days, knee, soreness because I can? I'll spend $200 every 5 years not to walk around in pain, I'd rather prevent a medical issue, not adapt to it.

We have 74 sizes in the new LOTB to make you and every other soldier (without a bonafide deformity or medical issue) happy. You are definitely entitled to your opinion... if your feet fit, have you tried investing in a good set of insoles? I realize that it's an expense you shouldn't have to incur, but $20-30 is better than $200.

 

[PuckChaser]

We have 74 sizes in the new LOTB to make you and every other soldier (without a bonafide deformity or medical issue) happy. You are definitely entitled to your opinion... if your feet fit, have you tried investing in a good set of insoles? I realize that it's an expense you shouldn't have to incur, but $20-30 is better than $200.

Are those sizes in mondo point again? If so, the CAF will likely be buying me COTS boots again, unless they are radically different design. The joys of falling between one of those 74 sizes, and buying a standard 9.5D Rocky boot and having it fit like a glove.

 

[Old and Tired]

Well, don't keep blaming the supply system. There's more than just us involved in it.  The boots suck; we get it.  All the bitching in the world isn't going to get a boot allowance though. 

I'm really not going to sit here and post all the myriad of outside influences involved in footwear as I've posted them all umpteen times before on this site; they haven't changed.

Everyone just keep on blaming supply though; we've got big shoulders and will bear the brunt of your ire with the shitty boots ... the same shitty boots we get to wear. 

Vern, I don't blame Supply Techs for the Crap they are forced to issue, just like I don't blame the Previous Base Commander in Halifax for the BS that comes out of Treasury Board about Pay Parking.  I had a conversation with a recently retired relative who was our ADM Fin CS and I under stand your pain about boot allowance and why it will never happened.  This point came up after dinner one night.  I told him point blank that the Army needs to stop buy sh*t boots and kit (Load Bearing stuff mostly), Kev asked why I wasn't wearing the new LOTP.  Point blank I told him that I did for a month.  After they fell apart because of poor quality materials and quality control, I went back to wearing my Rocky's

We have 74 sizes in the new LOTB to make you and every other soldier (without a bonafide deformity or medical issue) happy. You are definitely entitled to your opinion... if your feet fit, have you tried investing in a good set of insoles? I realize that it's an expense you shouldn't have to incur, but $20-30 is better than $200.

BinRat, it's not the 74 sizes that are the problem for most of us, the problem is that the Boots themselves are HORRIBLE.  They are poorly made, using unacceptable materials. If they can not stand up to the use and abuse that soldiers will, inevitably, give them then they have FAILED, miserably.  If they fail then most soldiers (I do not have enough experience with RCAF or RSN ops to tell) will continue to buy and wear their own.  I don't think I've worn an issue set of boots for more than a month since Bosnia in 1994 when I got my first set of Matterhorns.  Haven't looked back since and one has given me grief for it.

 

[BinRat55]

BinRat, it's not the 74 sizes that are the problem for most of us, the problem is that the Boots themselves are HORRIBLE.  They are poorly made, using unacceptable materials. If they can not stand up to the use and abuse that soldiers will, inevitably, give them then they have FAILED, miserably.  If they fail then most soldiers (I do not have enough experience with RCAF or RSN ops to tell) will continue to buy and wear their own.  I don't think I've worn an issue set of boots for more than a month since Bosnia in 1994 when I got my first set of Matterhorns.  Haven't looked back since and one has given me grief for it.

As repetitive as I seem to be here, the 74 sizes are just that - 74 sizes. Quirky said in his post that his boots fit fine. Can't do better than that. I have soldiers come in to Clothing and say "These boots don't fit." I do my best... they can't come in and say "These boots suck - I want a different pair" (well, some do...) but as Vern stated - we are at the mercy of the system - both PWGSC and the medical system.

We need to utilize the UCR system to the best of our ability. "This boot sucks" is going to get a UCR shredded. "The lacing gave way in 3 separate pairs (model# here) during A / B and C. I attempted to do E, F and G with no solution"

If enough people use the system correctly, the system will work correctly.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

These boots are brand new. We collectively shouldn't be filling out UCRs. These boots passed all the rigours tests. There should be no flaws. No systematic failures.

 

[BinRat55]

It's time you quit being so condescending in your posts. Your position allows you to speak to things supply. Not pass judgement on those who wish to expand their knowledge.

---Staff---

If you see condescension, the so be it. I become rather frustrated with members of the CAF that are supposed to know better - not just here, but all over. I will become less "condescending" but don't confuse deserved sarcasm with me thinking i'm better than anyone - I am not. My trade allows me to speak to things supply, but my experience allows me to speak to many other things as well. As far as passing judgment? I have done that a total of one time in my many years on this site.

And we can discuss my experience line item by line item any time you wish.

I apologize to anyone I may have offended.

 

[BinRat55]

These boots are brand new. We collectively shouldn't be filling out UCRs. These boots passed all the rigours tests. There should be no flaws. No systematic failures.

Agreed - however, here we are. Everyone is saying things like "garbage" and "heavy, clunky, sheite..." I don't know exactly how the information from T&E is assessed, but if, as you say the boots passed all rigorous tests, these boots are being procured I think we still have to tell those that are in a position to make the difference.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If you see condescension, the so be it. I become rather frustrated with members of the CAF that are supposed to know better - not just here, but all over. I will become less "condescending" but don't confuse deserved sarcasm with me thinking i'm better than anyone - I am not. My trade allows me to speak to things supply, but my experience allows me to speak to many other things as well. As far as passing judgment? I have done that a total of one time in my many years on this site.

And we can discuss my experience line item by line item any time you wish.

I apologize to anyone I may have offended.

No one has problem with your experience or trade insight. Nor with well placed sarcasm, which is a staple here.

The "I can't believe anyone with x time in the CAF would ask\ think such a thing", etc, comments are the ones that we can do without.

---Staff---

 

[sidemount]

Maybe sarcasm i dunno. It might be like saying the LSVW passed all the rigorours tests.....its kinda true, but not really

As for boots, what I have learned in 12 years in the army is my feet knees and back need to be taken care of first and foremost. That means, i get the best fitting, most comfortable boot that Im allowed to have. The new boots may be great, but if they don't fit my feet right (fit is more than just 74 sizes) I will wear something else if I am allowed. That doesn't mean the boot itself is bad....its just bad for me. It may be perfect for others and they may hate the type of boots I wear. Its just how it goes.

 

[BinRat55]

So on a not-so-off topic, the new LOTB issue is moving along. We received direction from DGLEPM last week (yes, we receive direction - we don't arbitrarily make these decisions on our own) to this degree (I am fragmenting and highlighting from the original):

"... there is no such thing as the perfect fit when it comes to footwear... our boots are designed to fit 95% of all the member's of CAF... there will be more stricter (sic) put in place WRT purchasing boots downtown... the "perfect" fit is virtually unattainable and beyond reasonable expectation... members need to take some responsibility for their own comfort as well... most LPO requests will not be entertained..."

That being said, I have sized soldiers with feet like skis (no size to fit - LPO) and feet like bananas (no size to fit - LPO) but as I have stated - 74 sizes WILL fit most. As for comfort? You'll never please everyone I guess. Hopefully this allows more people to see where we are coming from. Don't shoot the messenger!

 

[cld617]

Appreciate the update to the thread. I'm definitely one of these people who is in between sizes, but as a result to shortages in the supply system making my size unobtainable.

I'm curious what responsibility for my own comfort entails. My own purchased insoles, thicker socks, sucking it up? I'm in the fortunate position at the moment where I can wear a boot that conforms to the safety requirements of my job, and no one questions whether it was purchased or issued. Many are not in this position, their only option is clothing stores and they're going to be left high and dry.

 

[BinRat55]

Yes - an insole (a good one, not the dollar store variety where you cut them up with scissors...). Also be diligent with the sizing. I'll explain the mondo-point sizing so everyone knows how it works:

You have two numbers (i.e. 280/106) The first number is your foot, from heel to toe, measured in millimeters. Same as the second number - width of foot measured in millimeters. The first number (280) actually begins for us at 210 and progresses by 5mm increments to 310. You go from 280 to 285 you are essentially lengthing the boot by 5mm. The second number (the width) cycles from 86 to 118 (depending on the length) in 4mm increments. The longer the boot, the higher the second number starts at (I.e. for a boot that is only 210 in length its conceivable to have a width of 86mm. However you will not see that narrow of a width on a longer boot, like say 280. The length and width need to be somewhat proportional.

If I were sizing you and I measured you at a width that was not exactly within the 4mm increment (say you were sized at a 265/102 but we don't make a 102 in the 265s - 100 or 104 would be the choice, I pick the 104. It is a huge 2mm difference.) Sometimes going up the length (270 vice a 265) may help, but you are still in the same boat with the width.

Also, remember what I said about proportionality? Well it's the same throughout the sizing kit - a 110mm width will fit and feel differently on a 280 than on a 300 (280/110 vs 300/110). The last thing you have to keep in mind as the LOTB, as well as the CWWB and GP boot WILL stretch. Depending on the material of the boot, the hell you put it through and the duration worn will determine how much.

I hope this helps a few people exercise their "managed" choice. Don't be afraid to ask the staff at Clothing if you want to try a different size - I (an any good Supply Tech) will spend as much time as is required with you. Trust me, I have had some real divas... but you live on your feet. They need to be happy.

 

[MJP]

I'm curious what responsibility for my own comfort entails. My own purchased insoles, thicker socks, sucking it up?

Here the ADMMAT response to that question ( and others) when the field force raised up a series of issues on the new boots.

ALCON,

I am sending this email in response to some of the more unreasonable requests that have been arriving in my email.  Pls note that there is no such thing as the ‘’perfect fit’’ when it comes to footwear.  Our boots are designed to accommodate 95% of the mbrs of the CAF as this is our mandate.  With the arrival of the LOTB, there will be much stricter controls put in place WRT LPO for boots.  The Technical Authority for Footwear and I have submitted changes to be added to the A-LM-007-100/AG-001 (SAM) shortly IOT support Supply techs with the ‘’how to fit footwear’’ for the mbr and to support the supply tech who needs to have the client understand that we try to supply correct and comfortable footwear but that the ‘’perfect’’ fit is virtually unattainable and beyond reasonable expectation.  Mbrs need to take some responsibility for their own comfort as well.  If an insole is all that is required for comfort or a better fit, then the mbr may purchase their own – not demand a new pair of boots thru Supply as these requests will not be entertained.

Now I agree in part with the originator on the at times unreasonable expectations.  Having seen first hand over many years on both sides of the counter, some people will be contrary regardless of what you are issuing them.  However the tone of the email sucked and was very similar to the respose that was recieved when we complained about the Tac Vest.  My comment when forwarding this was simply "as usual the field force isn't using it right and Ottawa knows best".

 

[Occam]

I have no dog in this fight anymore, having retired from the CF more than four years ago now.  However, after reading the excellent description of the Mondopoint sizing system, I'm left wondering:

Mondopoint does a great job of measuring a foot in two dimensions.  However, people don't have two-dimensional feet - your feet exist in three dimensions.  Wearing the crappy old sea boots with zero arch support for so long ruined my feet, and as a result I required a pretty aggressive design of orthotic.  More times than not, I couldn't get a good fit with both the orthotic AND my foot in the same boot.  Things improved somewhat when I went to the CEMS CWWB, but they were still lacking - I still developed thick painful callouses on my feet because there simply wasn't enough height accommodation in the boot.

The powers that be may be saying "stricter controls" when it comes to LPO boots, but I don't think that plan will survive contact with the troops who are wearing orthotics.

 

[Old and Tired]

Here the ADMMAT response to that question ( and others) when the field force raised up a series of issues on the new boots.

ALCON,

I am sending this email in response to some of the more unreasonable requests that have been arriving in my email.  Pls note that there is no such thing as the ‘’perfect fit’’ when it comes to footwear.  Our boots are designed to accommodate 95% of the mbrs of the CAF as this is our mandate.  With the arrival of the LOTB, there will be much stricter controls put in place WRT LPO for boots.  The Technical Authority for Footwear and I have submitted changes to be added to the A-LM-007-100/AG-001 (SAM) shortly IOT support Supply techs with the ‘’how to fit footwear’’ for the mbr and to support the supply tech who needs to have the client understand that we try to supply correct and comfortable footwear but that the ‘’perfect’’ fit is virtually unattainable and beyond reasonable expectation.  Mbrs need to take some responsibility for their own comfort as well.  If an insole is all that is required for comfort or a better fit, then the mbr may purchase their own – not demand a new pair of boots thru Supply as these requests will not be entertained.

Now I agree in part with the originator on the at times unreasonable expectations.  Having seen first hand over many years on both sides of the counter, some people will be contrary regardless of what you are issuing them.  However the tone of the email sucked and was very similar to the respose that was recieved when we complained about the Tac Vest.  My comment when forwarding this was simply "as usual the field force isn't using it right and Ottawa knows best".

Did anyone at ADM MAT say anything about what should be at least 100 UCR's from the ENGR world in regards to the quality, or lack of, in the new LOTP.  I know that I have sent 3.  One for each of the Brown/Tan boots I've had in the last 3 years.  In 3 years I've burned through 6 pair of boots (2 of each style).  They have all been returned to clothing being unserviceable after anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months.  I'm back in Rocky's again because they work, they fit, and they last.

I remember the TAC VEST Fiasco as well.  I was on the very first tour that deployed with them. Day one when issued we all thought "WOW, we have arrived in the big leagues."  Two months later in my Troop of 34, counting myself and Troop Comd, we had over 25 returned as unserviceable due to zipper's, stitching, buckles and on and on. UCR duly filled out, filed and ignored by the powers that be. Off to the British PX to buy their gear.