Canadian modular assault rifle project, a C7 replacement?

[IRepoCans]

Trap/Skeet shooting come close to those numbers for target speed. We'd be wise to spend some time training folks to do that as a tool in the toolbox. Defeating a air threat needs layers and the shotgun falls under "oh fuck that's close" in the final layer. Immediately dismissing it means you're just placing all your trust in someone else to defeat the threat for you and sometimes simpler is better.

Sure it has a use if you have no other options, but from the Ukrainians/legionnaires we've worked with: fieldcraft seems to be a far more effective active and passive response to anything UAS. Not so much as dismissing it, but loathing the fixation on the shotgun at the expense of fieldcraft in CASFC.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Ah yes, the shotgun is going to stop the 80-120kph FPV bomber drone which are being used for attacks in Ukraine.

Yeah. Apparently more effective than trying to blast them with an AR15, which is why they're being used in Ukraine I guess. Obviously they're not going to work every time and are a last ditch close-range effort. Even 1 pellet from a shotgun round can disable a drone.

The only good thing coming out of the AA CAUS shotgun fad is that it's removed all the bullshit waivers and barriers to using shotguns for ballistic breaches on ex and course (the thing I need a shotgun for most of the time). So the mysteriously missing PO 109 Perform a Ballistic Breach will return to RQIP like it was in the draft QSTP.

But did they remove the caveat about shooting people in the head from the PAM?

 

[PuckChaser]

Sure it has a use if you have no other options, but from the Ukrainians/legionnaires we've worked with: fieldcraft seems to be a far more effective active and passive response to anything UAS. Not so much as dismissing it, but loathing the fixation on the shotgun at the expense of fieldcraft in CASFC.

Absolutely. There's a giant venn diagram with the center point of "not blown up by FPV today" and that very much includes fieldcraft.

 

[McG]

Does the NATO ammo standardization not include details on peak pressure, all-burnt point, and combustion temperature? Will we have a rifle that cannot accept NATO 5.56 because it needs bespoke Canadian 5.56?

 

[PuckChaser]

Does the NATO ammo standardization not include details on peak pressure, all-burnt point, and combustion temperature? Will we have a rifle that cannot accept NATO 5.56 because it needs bespoke Canadian 5.56?

No one else follows STANAGs, why should we?

 

[GK .Dundas]

No one else follows STANAGs, why should we?

Why does this sound so familiar...hmm Ross,...Rose or some name like that

 

[KevinB]

Trap/Skeet shooting come close to those numbers for target speed.

No not at all -- plus the clay launchers put the targets so they are moving away from you in a fairly predicable pattern. To make it move in a realistic manner you would have a launcher inside 25m that launches it right at you - from any direction and altitude. I'm a pretty decent shooter and can 24-25/25 with my wife's Benelli M2 regularly - but that has a 22" barrel, I've tried it with a Cylinder Bore 14" and I'm sub 50%.
You aren't likely carrying a 28" Goose Gun for this task.

We'd be wise to spend some time training folks to do that as a tool in the toolbox. Defeating an air threat needs layers and the shotgun falls under "oh fuck that's close" in the final layer. Immediately dismissing it means you're just placing all your trust in someone else to defeat the threat for you and sometimes simpler is better.

Everyone I have spoke to who has been on the ground in Ukraine laughs at the shotgun idea.
There are more effective portable C-UAS methods than a shotgun. Frankly I think you have more luck with a large handheld fishing net than a shotgun against an attack drone, which I still hold is a click bait tool and nothing of any practical military application.
Hitting one dude (or vehicle) with a sub 10% success rate to land a 40mm type payload isn't going to break anything - yeah it sucks if you are the unlucky guy who gets smashed with it -- but RAM (Rockets, Artillery, and Mortars) are a way bigger threat to dismounted soldiers, than a FPV SUAS.

Militarily shotguns are useful for ballistic breaching - and that is about it, so a small 8-10" barrel with a 3+1 capacity.
LE I can accept LL or Slug for Anti-Vehicle in addition to breaching, albeit for both LL and AV work there are much better tools - so the very short stand alone breacher is the way to go for LE as well IMHO.

 

[KevinB]

Does the NATO ammo standardization not include details on peak pressure, all-burnt point, and combustion temperature? Will we have a rifle that cannot accept NATO 5.56 because it needs bespoke Canadian 5.56?

As of last week all 5EYE SOF are at least talking about a common load spec. Big Army down here is talking to SOF and working the ammo issues jointly, so I expect that at least Canada, the UK, Australia, and American forces will have a mutually compatible loading (even if the loadings of some are not approved from non SOF use by other counties).


But I mean the Brit's fielded two different 5.56mm loads as the SA-80 couldn't handle standard NATO SS109 loads, why be different than them

 

[McG]

No one else follows STANAGs, why should we?

There were a few examples of platoons & sections receiving allied ammo in Kandahar. If nobody follows STANAGs or if we need an ammo performance that is not achieved by NATO standard, then sharing is no longer an option. We claimed to have learned this was important when NATO guns started exploding when used in Ukraine with another NATO nation’s standardization compliant ammo.

… and if our conventional forces need to share, they will most likely need to share with allied conventional forces.

 

[NavyShooter]

I'll observe that there is "NATO STANDARD" and "NATO INTERCHANGEABLE"

The Circle with a + inside is NATO Standard - meaning it will fit and function in your rifle safely.

The Maltese Cross is NATO Interchangeable - meaning that it will fit and function in your rifle, and will shoot to within 3 MOA of your expected point of aim out to 300 meters.

(As I recall.)

The SA-80 ammo that was 'tuned' to suit those rifles in particular had to remove not just the Maltese cross, but also the Circle/+

In 1997 I think it was, the USARNG team in Bisley had an ammo mixup, and they had to borrow Brit ammo. Their rifles were jamming within 12-15 rounds fired, and they were having to clean rifles between matches to get them to function.

The HK Fixed L85A..etc series rifles worked perfectly fine with NATO Interchangeable ammunition. That problem is now thankfully well in the past.

 

[KevinB]

I'll observe that there is "NATO STANDARD" and "NATO INTERCHANGEABLE"

The Circle with a + inside is NATO Standard - meaning it will fit and function in your rifle safely.

The Maltese Cross is NATO Interchangeable - meaning that it will fit and function in your rifle, and will shoot to within 3 MOA of your expected point of aim out to 300 meters.

(As I recall.)

The SA-80 ammo that was 'tuned' to suit those rifles in particular had to remove not just the Maltese cross, but also the Circle/+

In 1997 I think it was, the USARNG team in Bisley had an ammo mixup, and they had to borrow Brit ammo. Their rifles were jamming within 12-15 rounds fired, and they were having to clean rifles between matches to get them to function.

The HK Fixed L85A..etc series rifles worked perfectly fine with NATO Interchangeable ammunition. That problem is now thankfully well in the past.

The Brits still have two lots of 5.56mm as of last year -- 1) ammo for the KAC KS-1 guns, and the C7/C8's 2) ammo for the SA80A2.

The SA80A2 ammo is lower pressure - not cycling the AR style weapons well, although it generally works fine in suppressed AR's but still reduced velocities.

You can run a SA80A2 on standard C77/M855 ammo - but it flogs itself to death.