Discussions related to privatization of SAR

[cavalryman]

Will the trend to privatization continue until only the combat arms are military? 

Why stop there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condottieri

 

[brihard]

For those exact points, I don't think it would be economically feasible for a 'Private Contractor" to fulfill the role.


The USAF has specialists to fill the CSAR role in combat situations.  Although our SAR Techs are not expected to do so, most are Remusters from Cbt Arms units, so that possibility could exist in the CAF.

This has me wondering. Let's say that one day for whatever reason the CAF determines that we have an urgent operational requirement for CSAR. Now, I anticipate that the 'RTFN' answer would involve existing assets (likely CSOR & JTF2 Med Techs with 427 SOAR as aviation), but if we decided that we wanted a sustainable capability to deploy two birds with crew at any point in time for CSAR, what would it take to do that out of what we already have? Would a 'best' solution be hiving CSAR off as a specialty within our existing SAR and running appropriate candidates through a shooter course? Or would it make more sense to do it as a modest expansion within the tan-hat community?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Why stop there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condottieri

Given the curious attention paid to ribbons & bows these days, there's also this option ...

 

[mariomike]

Let's say that one day for whatever reason the CAF determines that we have an urgent operational requirement for CSAR.

Regarding CSAR, an interesting discussion here,

CANSOFCOM Search and Rescue?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/39515.75
4 pages.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The USAF has specialists to fill the CSAR role in combat situations.  Although our SAR Techs are not expected to do so, most are Remusters from Cbt Arms units, so that possibility could exist in the CAF.

This has me wondering. Let's say that one day for whatever reason the CAF determines that we have an urgent operational requirement for CSAR. Now, I anticipate that the 'RTFN' answer would involve existing assets (likely CSOR & JTF2 Med Techs with 427 SOAR as aviation), but if we decided that we wanted a sustainable capability to deploy two birds with crew at any point in time for CSAR, what would it take to do that out of what we already have? Would a 'best' solution be hiving CSAR off as a specialty within our existing SAR and running appropriate candidates through a shooter course? Or would it make more sense to do it as a modest expansion within the tan-hat community?

CSAR involves much much more than just PJs.  Canada would never, ever have the ability to do CSAR.  Why?  $$

Even if you sent SAR Techs to train to the PJ CSAR job, Canada doesn't have the kit to effect CSAR and never, ever will.  Unless we do a complete 180 on defence spending.  IMO...never going to happen.

Most stuff on CSAR other than the words "CSAR" are part of the 'not discussed on public forums', so I'll leave my  :2c: at what I said so far...

 

[George Wallace]

Given the curious attention paid to ribbons & bows these days, there's also this option ...

A Swiss Guard would add a bit of colour to Parliament Hill.  >

 

[MarkOttawa]

More on UK at DID (further links at original):

Britain’s Next Search-and-Rescue Helicopters: Civilian Contractors

October 16/15: The Royal Air Force has ceased external link external link providing Search and Rescue (SAR) services for the United Kingdom mainland, with the Royal Navy scheduled to follow suit next year, with the responsibility then falling to a civilian government agency and private contractors through a GBP1.6 billion contract awarded in March 2013 external link external link. The RAF’s H3 Sea King helicopters used to conduct SAR operations are being retired as the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and private company Bristow Helicopters Ltd are phased-in to replace them. The latter will eventually become wholly responsible for the mainland UK’s SAR coverage...
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/british-searchandrescue-a-billion-pound-partnership-02271/

I cannot believe any Canadian gov't would dare privatize SAR given the almost pathological importance we attach to the federal government’s being in charge of aerial (RCAF) and maritime (CCG) search and rescue, e.g.:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/search-for-labrador-boy-lost-on-ice-raises-more-questions-1.1149323

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/burton-winters-picked-as-top-news-story-of-2012-1.1273794

No gov't would dare face the outcry from a major botch of a privatized SAR mission.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

They have a long history of RNLI and Trinity House filling the needs of what the CCG mostly does. The UK has the benefit of a denser population in a smaller area making private contracting likely more realistic.

Currently a huge part of our SAR Techs time is in training and maintaining certifications. Even we don't keep the stations manned 24/7 with military who don't get OT either and can't go on strike. I don't see a civilian provider doing it cheaper, unless they cut training, certifications and services. The first thing to go would be the diving, followed by the parachuting, then medical certification being cut back. They would then lobby to increasing the mandated response times. If you fine them to often for missing those times, then they go belly up and your scrambling to fill the void.

The Forces would be nuts to give it up, it provides huge political capital for them and the politicians. CCG would like to get out of inshore SAR altogether, which would then reduce them to a mainly navigation aid provider/maintainer which is a role ripe for privatization. In fact it's only the offshore SAR requirements that keeps them from going that route.

You could mandate the RCN to provide offshore SAR and then privatize the rest. Likely done slice by slice. The feds used to provide airports, docks,  staff and equipment to fix them, dredging and they are almost completely out of that role now 

 

[MarkOttawa]

Colin P.: Bang on the politics--the warm and fuzzy SAR mission gets the forces great popular credit across the political spectrum.  About the only one that does? Remember the NDP thinks they should be fighting forest fires at home and abroad--Smokey the Soldier?  Their 2011 federal election platform:
http://www.cdfai.org.previewmysite.com/the3dsblog/?p=209

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

But the tail wags the dog.

SAR is an appropriate secondary use of transport squadrons.  It makes little sense to me to stand up squadrons primarily/solely for SAR and have those dollars taken away from militarily useful capabilities.  Because our SAR capability, to my understanding, serves no military purpose.

 

[Loachman]

We do not need to see transport squadrons - or Tac Hel Squadrons, or MH Squadrons - becoming excessively distracted from their primary functions by constant calls for their secondary functions.

 

[Altair]

The defense minister said it won't be privatized

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You could mandate the RCN to provide offshore SAR and then privatize the rest.

The day the Navy is mandated to provide offshore SAR is the day you cease to have a Navy. Our job is to fight and train to fight, not to save lives. If we have to  have the presence along Canada's coasts required to provide SAR, then we don't have any ship to deploy on anything else - so what's the point of spending all that money on warships.

What would you do if we had to got fight somewhere, like Gulf War I? Sorry old pal, no SAR this year, we're somewhere else.

 

[DonaldMcL]

We do not need to see transport squadrons - or Tac Hel Squadrons, or MH Squadrons - becoming excessively distracted from their primary functions by constant calls for their secondary functions.

I'd ask the CP-140 guys about that.... Calling EITS =D

 

[mariomike]

The defense minister said it won't be privatized

Financially, privatization with a company like ORNGE for example, does not make sense to me.

CEO: $418,000.18 Taxable Benefits: $994.68

A lot of their Paramedics are on the Sunshine List. One made: $164,589.78 Taxable Benefits: $1,909.75

Their Chiefs make more than that.

And, that's with no SAR training.

 

[PuckChaser]

Are our SAR Techs trained and licensed as paramedics?

 

[mariomike]

Are our SAR Techs trained and licensed as paramedics?

I just know what I read on here,

I only ask because Sar Techs also do their program through the JIBC(same as Med Techs?) and are not required to earn a licence at any point. The protocols do change after course however, I believe they reflect the BC PCP protocols very closely (It's been awhile). There are some "advanced" skill/protocols added at the QL6A level that fall somewhere in between PCP and ACP as far as I can tell.

Once fully qualified, we are pcp + (super PCP?). the time spent maintainingACP currency is prohibitive, and those skills are very perishable and would not be often utilized.

The defense minister said it won't be privatized

I saw this on his Twitter, Is that what you are referring to?

"No one does SAR better than the @CanadianForces. #DefenceConsults is about having an open debate & always improving."

 

[PuckChaser]

No one does SAR better, because our SAR Techs have unlimited liability. They can't say no to a lawful order to conduct a mission. Civilian agencies most definitely can scrub missions for safety.

 

[mariomike]

Civilian agencies most definitely can scrub missions for safety.

The SOP of the city department I worked for read, "Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."

I never put it to the test, but I knew a few who did. They were fired.

 

[Ostrozac]

No one does SAR better, because our SAR Techs have unlimited liability. They can't say no to a lawful order to conduct a mission. Civilian agencies most definitely can scrub missions for safety.

It's notable that the two largest agencies worldwide responsible for Search and Rescue over vast distances and harsh climate are the United States Coast Guard and the Russian Maritime Border Guards. Both are what we would consider unlimited liability services.

Could the private sector handle SAR in the south of Canada? Absolutely. The private sector has provided unlimited liability services before (East India Company, Air America, Blackwater) -- but such services don't come cheap. And what's the point of privatizing if you don't save any money?