Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[Kirkhill]

Strongly incorrect.  Reg F numbers are signficiantly larger.  On an annual basis, funding is allocated to meet expected strength, with unused funds reallocated prior to the start of the FY to address a variety of pressures.

OK - let me turn my point on its head (and no cracks about pointy heads)

Take a look at the USMC reserve model and tell me how many FTEs/Dollars it would take to fund such a model.

 

[MilEME09]

OK - let me turn my point on its head (and no cracks about pointy heads)

Take a look at the USMC reserve model and tell me how many FTEs/Dollars it would take to fund such a model.

I think there would be a short term increase, long term gain for the CAF, a bigger fully trained pool of reservists mean more members to augment the regular force when needed, and if we get into a conflict we will have plenty of reservists to fill the gap left by the loss of personal to a battle group.

 

[McG]

Take a look at the USMC reserve model and tell me how many FTEs/Dollars it would take to fund such a model.

There is not a dollar value assigned to the concept of an FTE.  I understand that cutting the Reg F establishment permanently would provide funds to increase PRes pay, but the Conservatives are not proposing that we adopt a USMC model to replace the current PRes.  Are you proposing that we shrink the Reg F to pay more reservists to achieve the Conservatives' promise?

 

[Kirkhill]

There is not a dollar value assigned to the concept of an FTE.  I understand that cutting the Reg F establishment permanently would provide funds to increase PRes pay, but the Conservatives are not proposing that we adopt a USMC model to replace the current PRes.  Are you proposing that we shrink the Reg F to pay more reservists to achieve the Conservatives' promise?

No.  I am asking how much it would cost to fund the PRes of 24,000(32,000) on the same contractual basis as the USMC Reserves (which closely mirrors the US Army Reserves and the National Guard, not to mention the Swedish Home Guard).

Nor am I suggesting replacing the PRes with a different system.  I am suggesting that a different contractual model be considered.
Beyond the initial 10 to 12 week Basic Training requirement I don't see a lot of difference between the Annual Drill expectation of a US Marine Reservist and a Canadian Forces Reservist.  The difference is measured in days, not weeks and certainly not months.

Apparently the PRes exists as an entity.  There has to be a cost associated with it - both the administrative cost and the cost of paying the individuals when they are training (drilling, parading, camping - choose your euphemism).

There is an implicit intention that the PRes will be a pool of usable bodies that fill slots in the Defence Establishment as and when needed.

It seems to me that some of those slots can be filled by Regular Force people that collect a salary for 365 day a year service, or they can be filled by "others" on short term contracts of 2 days, 2 weeks or 2 months.  When they are not working they are not paid.

A large pool of Reservists (unpaid but willing) means that it is more likely that you will find somebody available to fill a slot than if you only have a small pool.

The issue is how do you get the pool of Reservists and what skills should they have.

Other forces seem to have got the game figured out - Their forces are complex mixes of capabilities with only some portion of the force being fully manned by high readiness personnel.

The CF, or at least the CA, has been struggling with that for as long as I have known them.  Total Force has never achieved fruition.

Perhaps the system can start with offering all candidates for both the PRes and the Regs the same Basic Training programme and then having them diverge after the course is over.

One 11 week summer job, or even a single 11 week sabbatical from a job, once in a career is not an impossibility.

 

[Jarnhamar]

RoyalDrew isn't wrong.
The reserves are wholly unprepared to deploy on a short notice.

Leadership has to practically put a gun to peoples heads to get them on week long exercises (with members at all rank levels pulling out, especially last second).
Even getting troops out to do weekend exercises is a battle. You call someone at home and tell them they *have* to go somewhere and they'll tell you no thanks, they have school/work/sorry I have kids/my dog is sick/Metallica concert (true story).

Deploying on a long task?
People simply won't have their lives together to facilitate it. That's not including the number of physically unfit or injured who hold key positions and can't deploy.

If you're a shitty section commander in the regular force there's a big chance you'll get banished from being in charge of soldiers, you're new. Young officers who screw up and can't sort themselves out will share the same fate.
In the reserves there's shitty leaders who have been entrenched in the same position for years. Put pressure on them, take away their ability to blame others or pass off work and they'll crumble. You basically have to wait until someone retires or quits.

I would love for reserves to be able to deploy as units. The last reserve element I worked with overseas couldn't man a complete platoon of their own trade (reserve armored) from all of Ontario and needed a section of infantry. They also had to fire and replace one WO, two SGTs, a MCpl and two CPLs. 

Reserves are great for augmenting on an individual or small basis  (CANSOF has a lot ofchecked out dudes who came from the reserves, lots in the battalions too), they're a long way away from deploying as regiments.

 

[Remius]

RoyalDrew isn't wrong.
The reserves are wholly unprepared to deploy on a short notice.

Leadership has to practically put a gun to peoples heads to get them on week long exercises (with members at all rank levels pulling out, especially last second).
Even getting troops out to do weekend exercises is a battle. You call someone at home and tell them they *have* to go somewhere and they'll tell you no thanks, they have school/work/sorry I have kids/my dog is sick/Metallica concert (true story).

Deploying on a long task?
People simply won't have their lives together to facilitate it. That's not including the number of physically unfit or injured who hold key positions and can't deploy.

If you're a shitty section commander in the regular force there's a big chance you'll get banished from being in charge of soldiers, you're new. Young officers who screw up and can't sort themselves out will share the same fate.
In the reserves there's shitty leaders who have been entrenched in the same position for years. Put pressure on them, take away their ability to blame others or pass off work and they'll crumble. You basically have to wait until someone retires or quits.

I would love for reserves to be able to deploy as units. The last reserve element I worked with overseas couldn't man a complete platoon of their own trade (reserve armored) from all of Ontario and needed a section of infantry. They also had to fire and replace one WO, two SGTs, a MCpl and two CPLs. 

Reserves are great for augmenting on an individual or small basis  (CANSOF has a lot ofchecked out dudes who came from the reserves, lots in the battalions too), they're a long way away from deploying as regiments.

I don't think anyone is stating that they can deploy as regiments. 

Where he is wrong is the blanket statements about how most reserve units can't organize any better than Boy Scout troops.  That's a typical SFRG attitude. 

Give the reserves the resources and support they need.  Right now they don't.  A big part of that is the reg force attitude and policies.

 

[George Wallace]

I don't think anyone is stating that they can deploy as regiments. 

Where he is wrong is the blanket statements about how most reserve units can't organize any better than Boy Scout troops.  That's a typical SFRG attitude. 

Give the reserves the resources and support they need.  Right now they don't.  A big part of that is the reg force attitude and policies.

The Reserves are not different than the Regs, in that some units have their shit wired more tight than others, and some are just crap (at the moment as Unit lives are cyclical depending on their leadership.).

 

[Remius]

The Reserves are not different than the Regs, in that some units have their crap wired more tight than others, and some are just crap (at the moment as Unit lives are cyclical depending on their leadership.).

Exactly.

Some units by virtue of geography, resources (many of which have to be scrounged for through contacts) and solid leadership can be and are successful despite the lack of resources and support available. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Don't get me wrong guys, I'll criticize the reg force and reserves in equal measure.  I would say the best RSM and Company comander I've worked for were reserves.

It's an axiom there are shit pumps in either (every) organization.

The point I'm trying to make is that in the regs poopy leaders can sidelined or removed pretty fast.  In the reserves they can (and do) sit in the same positions and stagnate which harms the unit anytime they try and organize.  And it's near impossible to get rid of them.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Agreed.  Equipment is definitely an issue and it is why this is a CAF issue not just a reg or reserve issue.

Well aware of DART's composition.  But they have an ready HQ, equipment, a readily accessible base and sigs unit. And equipment.  The people they pull from across the CAF aren't just randomn.  They are for the most part dagged, pre screened and have trained for DART. 

Are you certain you're aware of the DART's composition or are you just quoting what you read on the Wikipedia?

DART is not a unit, it's a tasking which falls under the auspices of CONPLAN RENAISSANCE. A person isn't permanently with the DART but can be assigned the tasking from time to time.  You make it sound like they have an HQ and Sigs Unit sitting on their rucksacks waiting in Trenton for the call to pop over to Haiti, Philippines, Nepal, etc.  This is not the case.  All of the soldiers in a DART come from other units which get given a tasking to provide XX # of pers to the DART as part of the Managed Readiness Plan.  All DART really is are a bunch of sea containers in Trenton that can be loaded on a plane when the troops arrive to head overseas.

Being a member of the DART is a secondary duty for these folks.  It's the same thing with any other tasking.  For instance, if you're in a unit tasked to provide soldiers for CONPLAN ANGLE, i.e. NEO, you will have a portion of your unit (usually a company) dedicated to supporting this task.  When I was a Platoon Commander my Company was the NEO Vanguard Company for CONPLAN ANGLE.  My platoon was the Vanguard Platoon.  As part of our preparation to take over this tasking, the entire Company went through the DAG process, practiced numerous bugouts in case we got the call out.  Sounds like high readiness to me doesn't it?

You act as if the Regular Force just sits around and does nothing all day.  We have numerous contingency plans and standing tasks that we fill and train for, DART being a small one that we look after.  When my Battalion was in the hopper for LoO 4 of the MRP, we did a series of work up training and also had the entire Battalion DAG Green, go through our stores, check equipment allotments, etc.  Again, if the government wanted us to deploy rapidly, we would easily be able to.  A lot of times the political machine needs time to catch up to how quickly we can actually react. 

As for the fire response, yeah, but the reserves managed the same thing during the ice storm (and they were in far worse shape back then as far as being equipped).  Like I said it depends on the task or the mission or the logistics and dependant on geography and the ability to get there.

You provided bodies but was that to achieve a military effect or a political one?  I know some folks who were planners during that time and from what they tell me, the amount of time and resources spent trying to mobilize the Reserves "to get them in the game" could have been better spent elsewhere.

 

[Remius]

Don't get me wrong guys, I'll criticize the reg force and reserves in equal measure.  I would say the best RSM and Company comander I've worked for were reserves.

It's an axiom there are crap pumps in either (every) organization.

The point I'm trying to make is that in the regs poopy leaders can sidelined or removed pretty fast.  In the reserves they can (and do) sit in the same positions and stagnate which harms the unit anytime they try and organize.  And it's near impossible to get rid of them.

And some people don't see that balance unfortunately.  Biases and bubbles tend to blind some. Your last point is all too true in some cases.

 

[Remius]

Are you certain you're aware of the DART's composition or are you just quoting what you read on the Wikipedia?

DART is not a unit, it's a tasking which falls under the auspices of CONPLAN RENAISSANCE. A person isn't permanently with the DART but can be assigned the tasking from time to time.  You make it sound like they have an HQ and Sigs Unit sitting on their rucksacks waiting in Trenton for the call to pop over to Haiti, Philippines, Nepal, etc.  This is not the case.  All of the soldiers in a DART come from other units which get given a tasking to provide XX # of pers to the DART as part of the Managed Readiness Plan.  All DART really is are a bunch of sea containers in Trenton that can be loaded on a plane when the troops arrive to head overseas.

Being a member of the DART is a secondary duty for these folks.  It's the same thing with any other tasking.  For instance, if you're in a unit tasked to provide soldiers for CONPLAN ANGLE, i.e. NEO, you will have a portion of your unit (usually a company) dedicated to supporting this task.  When I was a Platoon Commander my Company was the NEO Vanguard Company for CONPLAN ANGLE and was on 72 Hrs NTM.  My platoon was the Vanguard Platoon and were on 24hrs NTM.  As part of our preparation to take over this tasking, the entire Company went through the DAG process, practiced numerous buyouts in case we got the call out with all members of the Company being called in and reporting for work usually within a two or three hour time frame.  Sounds like high readiness to me doesn't it?

You act as if the Regular Force just sits around and does nothing all day.  We have numerous contingency plans and standing tasks that we fill and train for, DART being a small one that we look after.  When my Battalion was in the hopper for LoO 4 of the MRP, we did a series of work up training and also had the entire Battalion DAG Green, go through our stores, check equipment allotments, etc.  Again, if the government wanted us to deploy rapidly, we would easily be able to.  A lot of times the political machine needs time to catch up to how quickly we can actually react. 


You provided bodies but was that to achieve a military effect or a political one?  I know some folks who were planners during that time and from what they tell me, the amount of time and resources spent trying to mobilize the Reserves "to get them in the game" could have been better spent elsewhere.

You keep putting words in my mouth. 

It took very little time to mobilize the reserves for the ice storm.  From fan out call to deployment it took less than12hrs.  Most units were on the ground before the reg force units because recalling so many people from leave took some time.  Again circumstance and task.  I get it.  You don't like the reserves.  Everything is perfectly fine in the reg force and they don't need them.  If the system provided the way it should the reserves could be more effective than it is.  But it isn't.  A lot of the reserve issues are not reserve generated. 

Just stop pretending that the reg force is all that and a bag of chips when it isn't.  I've said it before and I'll say it again these are CAF issues.  Issues that are shared between both reg and reserve.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Some of us reserves called out for the ice storm were told we don't have a choice,  if we didn't show up for work we would goto jail since  we were placed on emergency class c.

Turns out it wouldn't have passed the Maury test =)

 

[Remius]

Some of us reserves called out for the ice storm were told we don't have a choice,  if we didn't show up for work we would goto jail since  we were placed on emergency class c.

Turns out it wouldn't have passed the Maury test =)

They used to do a whole lot things back in the 90s that wouldn't have passed many of today's tests.  :blotto:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You keep putting words in my mouth. 

It took very little time to mobilize the reserves for the ice storm.  From fan out call to deployment it took less than12hrs.  Most units were on the ground before the reg force units because recalling so many people from leave took some time.  Again circumstance and task.  I get it.  You don't like the reserves.  Everything is perfectly fine in the reg force and they don't need them.  If the system provided the way it should the reserves could be more effective than it is.  But it isn't.  A lot of the reserve issues are not reserve generated. 

Just stop pretending that the reg force is all that and a bag of chips when it isn't.  I've said it before and I'll say it again these are CAF issues.  Issues that are shared between both reg and reserve.

Where did I put words in your mouth?  I merely retorted some of your earlier statements about the DART, Readiness (we supposedly aren't ready in the Reg Force according to you?)

Anyways since you want to talk about the Regular Force I will for a second.  I agree with you that it isn't the be all end all.  My problem with the Reg Force is the same problem I have with the Reserves i.e. too many units without enough people to fill any of those units.  We also have far too many chiefs (officers) and not enough Indians (troops) but that is a problem that exists in both organizations.

I am actually for shrinking the Regular Force, both in terms of number of units and also overheard/personnel.  Both the Army and Air Force have a bunch of superfluous HQ's with too many officers creating needless work for people.  Shrink the number of officers and consolidate units and you would have more money per man to train with.  The quality of our soldiers would improve as a result. 

I have nothing personal against the Reserves, they just don't really serve a military purpose and as a military professional I can't put my support behind something that offers no military value.  I understand their historical role and also the connection they have with communities but from a military standpoint they don't really provide anything other than Individual augmentation which could be solved with additional recruitment, etc.

We spend a tonne of money on the Reserves, would that money be better spent funding an additional Brigade?  Maybe so? 

I'm sure the knives will be out headhunting me for the above comments but I'd love to see someone show me what you guys can actually do and not just follow up with more conjecture and posturing.

In other words, propose to me how you would make the Reserves function better, the only constraint being you get no more money than you are receiving now.

 

[Remius]

For the army reserves we need to get out of provincial boundaries.

Put a Reg force BGen and CWO in charge of the Army Reserve Division and give them their own budget.

Three areas. 

Everything from Quebec city to the Atlantic would be the Eastern Reserve Brigade

Toronto to Mtl, central

West of Toronto would be western.

Each lead by a Colonel with several company commanders commanding elements of units that could be force generated to whatever.

Or something similar to that.

ROyaldrew: from our other discussion.  See above. 

The key is to give the pres their own budget and COC.  Drop non compatible trades. Force the CAF medical system to actually help dag reservists green (right now they won't unless they are deploying or for promotion).

Decentralize reserve training.

Drop all class b that aren't employed by actual reserve establishments

Pass stronger legislation to protect reservists jobs and schooling.

The point isn't to make the reserves equal to the reg force but to make them compatible.

Psy ops, CIMC, D&S, QRF tasks are things reservists have done and could do as tasks.  CEremonial, community PR are also tasks ( yes they have value whether you agree or not) that can also be accomplished.

 

[chrisf]

Our reserve unit is drastically undermanned. We haven't come close to exceeding attrition with recruiting in the past 5 years or so. It's not for a lack of trying, we just can't find recruits. We can expand recruiting all we like, if the recruits aren't there, we can't recruit them.

Since the subject veered off to the effectiveness of the reserves, i'll add this... it's been my experience that reserves leadership is, on average, at the very least under experienced, and often incompetent, sometimes dangerously so ( we've got some great leadership as well, but its the exception not the rule)

I say that after spending the last 13 years as a reservist, much of that in a lower leadership position.

The problem I see, and this is just my own observation, is because promotion is typically by attrition, the longer you stick around the better your odds of being promoted. Unfortunately, working as a reservist isn't as compatible with civilian life as the recruiting ads would have you believe.

It's a great part time job for someone who's a student and single. So you get maybe a 4-6 year service life out of reservists, at best you'll make it to master corporal.

Once you start adding a civi job and kids, it becomes very hard to balance these things... as much as i'd love to stay at it, and if I squeezed, I can make the time, if I get injured on mo'litia time, I can't do my regular job, and then my family and I would probably end up hungry and homeless.

Unfortunately the folks who stick around the longest, and the folks who can be available for career courses are the same folks who can't hold down a "real" job, but can't bring themselves to go reg force either. If you've made it to mwo as a reservist, and you still make your living from summer class b and winter time ei claims, you need to re-evaluate your life choices.

Not that we dont have plenty of outstanding examples and exceptions, bu that's what ive observed.

So way I see it, what the reserves does best is generate privates, corporals, and master corporals (I can't comment on officers, as I was an ncm... I can, but it'll mostly be insults, so ill refrain)

So if that's the strength, and also the weakness, if we really want to be efficient, that's where we need to concentrate. Either federally legislated job protection, earnings insurance, etc, or, provide more leadership from the reg force to reserves units.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

ROyaldrew: from our other discussion.  See above. 

The key is to give the pres their own budget and COC.  Drop non compatible trades. Force the CAF medical system to actually help dag reservists green (right now they won't unless they are deploying or for promotion).

I would also like to see the Reserves split off from the Regular Army.  I think the Canadian Army should have two divisions, a Regular one and a Reserve one.  Definitely a good idea and one that should be explored.  This also ties back to the fact that the CAF has too many officers though so someone at the end of the day needs to get fired, a very tricky proposition.

One thing to add, we still need to reduce the number of units we have.  We have too many units parading 30 guys a night when they are supposed to be at company strength.  These units need to be amalgamated to again reduce the overhead.  If a town Reserve unit only forms a platoon, so be it. 

Decentralize reserve training.

Drop all class b that aren't employed by actual reserve establishments

Yep, I think these are good ideas as well.  The only problem with most Class B is that if we dropped a lot of them we wouldn't be able to re-roll them into the Reserve world because the NDA wouldn't allow it.  Class B is a grey area that the Regular Force uses to augment itself due to staffing shortfalls, which I don't really understand because we have more than enough underemployed officers but I digress.  In the government's eyes, if you work as a full time soldier, you should be a full time soldier i.e. Regular Force. 

I'd like to see us get more mileage out of the full time cadre we do send to Reserve units.  Getting sent as RSS to a Reserve unit is often considered a crap posting by most Reg guys, it really shouldn't be.

Pass stronger legislation to protect reservists jobs and schooling.

This is the single biggest thing holding back the Reserves IMO.  Without legislation, you're not going to be able to keep the best and the brightest in the Service long enough to really get any benefit from them.  I've met a lot of really switched on Reservist Officers and Senior NCOs who have big jobs in the Private Sector but end up leaving because they aren't protected.

If we want the Reserves to provide value for money, they need job protection.

The point isn't to make the reserves equal to the reg force but to make them compatible.

Psy ops, CIMC, D&S, QRF tasks are things reservists have done and could do as tasks.  CEremonial, community PR are also tasks ( yes they have value whether you agree or not) that can also be accomplished.

They can do some of them but not without help.  PSYOPS and CIMIC are going to eventually become primarily a Regular Force unit, it's the only way that the capabilities are going to be kept alive.  I think you will see IATF become a Reg Force unit over the next few years.

I value ceremonial and PR for the political connections.  If I was a politician I would think it's great.  I'm not a politician though so I can't say that I believe those functions provide any sort of military value because they don't. 

 

[Kirkhill]

I value ceremonial and PR for the political connections.  If I was a politician I would think it's great.  I'm not a politician though so I can't say that I believe those functions provide any sort of military value because they don't.

Drew - Here's your answer.

Our reserve unit is drastically undermanned. We haven't come close to exceeding attrition with recruiting in the past 5 years or so. It's not for a lack of trying, we just can't find recruits. We can expand recruiting all we like, if the recruits aren't there, we can't recruit them.

Drums beating, Flags flying, Bayonets fixed has value - and it is a useful employment of the part time soldier.

You beating the bushes at Gagetown does not bring in recruits.  Heels hitting pavement in downtown wherever generates knowledge if not interest.  And the more bodies on parade the more the locals will think there might be something to this mob that has attracted their interest.

It cannot be the only reason for being - otherwise you are re-enactors like the Fort Henry Guard.  But it is not without value.

As to the points about an organized Reserve Division and a defined budget, I have to agree.  With respect to the parade strength, I also agree that that is a problem. 

I continue to suggest that the US Reserve Contract system has much to commend it.  I can't think of any reason why the number of parade days should be discretional.

If there is a role for a pure volunteer force then the unpaid Danish Homeguard model might be worth looking at, in addition to a properly funded US model Reserve.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Drew - Here's your answer.

Drums beating, Flags flying, Bayonets fixed has value - and it is a useful employment of the part time soldier.

You beating the bushes at Gagetown does not bring in recruits.  Heels hitting pavement in downtown wherever generates knowledge if not interest.  And the more bodies on parade the more the locals will think there might be something to this mob that has attracted their interest.

It cannot be the only reason for being - otherwise you are re-enactors like the Fort Henry Guard.  But it is not without value.

In a lot of cases some of the units act like a bunch of re-enactors.  If parading around in fancy clothes is a recruitment tool than it is a terrible one.  Want to get young guys interested in the Reserves?  Show them videos of guys kicking in doors, throwing grenades and generally kicking butts and taking names.  The USMC does this and they have the most success of all the services in the US military in terms of recruitment.

Of course this all ties back into my earlier points about creating real units, cutting back on the overhead and turning the Reserves into a real military organization with actual operational capabilities. 

I don't think we should adopt any continental European model and quite frankly we don't need to.  We have no existential threat where we would need to rapidly mobilize and we have no way of getting anyone anywhere if we did mobilize.

I think the Reserves should be all about leveraging every facet of your national power.  I suggest you read about the 77(UK) Brigade which was just stood up.  These are the sorts of organizations where I believe Reservists could definitely make a valuable contribution, especially when we consider some of the academics, business folk, engineers, etc... That aren't in the military but could serve as special officers in some sort of advisory capacity.