Future Armour

[KevinB]

I see your Sqn per Bde and would raise you a Cav Regt under 1 Can Div.

Which I would accept if you guys did anything at the Div level anymore. I tend to believe that the CA is foolish enough to make DIV resources on in theory these days.

I would be less irritated by the TAPV if it had an ATGM to allow longer covered bounds. In its current form it’s a non issue. The better options could fill pages, but I like the Jaguar myself.

As much as I like to complain about off-road mobility on the LAV, I could easily fill pages about trying to conduct any sort of tactical mobility off road with the TAPV. The ground pressure on those 4 tires means it’s going to sink into a lot of terrain.

The M1117 works down here, simply for what it is used for - convoy escort and airfield security, both which are fairly road bound.

 

[PrairieFella]

[...] I could easily fill pages about trying to conduct any sort of tactical mobility off road with the TAPV. The ground pressure on those 4 tires means it’s going to sink into a lot of terrain.

To say the least it's sketchy as shit and is not suitable offroad in any sort of adverse terrain. Man do drivers get good at picking good ground though.

 

[Kirkhill]

My pals the Danes ....

Denmark to Replace the CV9035DK Fleet with New CV9035 MkIIIC Vehicles, Raising Hopes for Future Aid to Ukraine | Defense Express

Denmark plans to order 44 new CV9035 MkIIIC vehicles rather than modernize its current CV9035DK fleet, a move that could eventually free older vehicles for transfer to Ukraine

en.defence-ua.com

Own 44 9035DK
Bought 115 9035 MkIIIC
Optionally replacing 44 9035DK with additional 44 9035 MkIIIC bringing total fleet to 159
Possibly donating 9035DKs to Ukraine.

 

[GR66]

A report on evolving Russian tank tactics:

Russia reveals new drone-enabled tank tactics

Russia has revealed a new set of battlefield tactics for its tank units, describing coordinated maneuvers that pair armored vehicles with unmanned aerial systems in ongoing combat operations, according to statements released by the Russian Ministry of Defense and the

defence-blog.com

It seems to me that these tactics would be very difficult to scale

“For future armored ‘fists,’ the key factor will be not the characteristics of a single machine, but the new level of its integration with other forces and assets — automated control systems, various classes of unmanned aerial vehicles, ground robots, artillery, electronic warfare and air defense systems, engineering units and anti-tank weapons.”

Coordinating all those other assets covering individual pairs of tanks working in a leapfrog fashion I think would be incredibly difficult at even a Squadron/Company level, never mind at a Regiment/Battalion level.

My gut tells me that if you can mass the artillery, UAV, EW and combined arms at a specific point on the front you will be able to break through the types of defences that the Russians/Ukrainians have been using in this war. The problem it seems to me is finding a way to get through the 20km deep "dead zone" created by drones to concentrate at the front.

 

[FJAG]

A report on evolving Russian tank tactics:

Russia reveals new drone-enabled tank tactics

Russia has revealed a new set of battlefield tactics for its tank units, describing coordinated maneuvers that pair armored vehicles with unmanned aerial systems in ongoing combat operations, according to statements released by the Russian Ministry of Defense and the

defence-blog.com

It seems to me that these tactics would be very difficult to scale

Coordinating all those other assets covering individual pairs of tanks working in a leapfrog fashion I think would be incredibly difficult at even a Squadron/Company level, never mind at a Regiment/Battalion level.

My gut tells me that if you can mass the artillery, UAV, EW and combined arms at a specific point on the front you will be able to break through the types of defences that the Russians/Ukrainians have been using in this war. The problem it seems to me is finding a way to get through the 20km deep "dead zone" created by drones to concentrate at the front.

This sounds more like an industry trying to justify its continued existence and funding. I can't see how the tactics described in the article materially improve the situation beyond there being some better situational awareness. There is no defence here against FPV drones or artillery or modern ATGMs other than the masses of wire and reactive armour hung on the tank in the picture.

IMHO, the real trick pony for future tank warfare is to provide a shielding bubble of EW, AD, C-UAV, armour protection, active protection etc etc systems around the manoeuvring force which allows the tanks to get back to doing what they do best with minimal losses.

 

[Kirkhill]

This sounds more like an industry trying to justify its continued existence and funding. I can't see how the tactics described in the article materially improve the situation beyond there being some better situational awareness. There is no defence here against FPV drones or artillery or modern ATGMs other than the masses of wire and reactive armour hung on the tank in the picture.

IMHO, the real trick pony for future tank warfare is to provide a shielding bubble of EW, AD, C-UAV, armour protection, active protection etc etc systems around the manoeuvring force which allows the tanks to get back to doing what they do best with minimal losses.

And none of that shielding bubble will be directed from inside a gun tank. It will be directed and co-ordinated by higher.

 

[GR66]

And none of that shielding bubble will be directed from inside a gun tank. It will be directed and co-ordinated by higher.

Which raises the question of how much higher can they be and still be effectively coordinated? Divisional assets? Brigade assets? Regimental/Battalion CS Squadron/Company? Squadron/Company CS Troop/Platoon? Embedded in the Troop/Platoon? At the Section level?

 

[Kirkhill]

Which raises the question of how much higher can they be and still be effectively coordinated? Divisional assets? Brigade assets? Regimental/Battalion CS Squadron/Company? Squadron/Company CS Troop/Platoon? Embedded in the Troop/Platoon? At the Section level?

How big is the operation and how long is your piece of string?

 

[FJAG]

And none of that shielding bubble will be directed from inside a gun tank. It will be directed and co-ordinated by higher.

I guess that depends on what you consider "higher."

Armour protection (reactive or otherwise) and active protection on the tank works autonomously.

I would think that much of the bubble that deals with gun and electronic C-UAS is within the control of the company which should have organic vehicles which are equipped with the system for that. They'll operate on local early warning and a very low level (probably within the coy maybe battalion at most) fire control rules.

I don't think that you get to higher (i.e. the div ADC until you start dealing with the division's air defence batteries and even there, threat alert systems will be governed by rules supplemented with what will be AI based shoot-don't shoot prompts.

Our AD system of the eighties which was good against air and helo systems of the time is till needed but there's a whole lot of lower level crap now that needs to be managed at very low levels.

 

[Kirkhill]

I guess that depends on what you consider "higher."

Armour protection (reactive or otherwise) and active protection on the tank works autonomously.

I would think that much of the bubble that deals with gun and electronic C-UAS is within the control of the company which should have organic vehicles which are equipped with the system for that. They'll operate on local early warning and a very low level (probably within the coy maybe battalion at most) fire control rules.

I don't think that you get to higher (i.e. the div ADC until you start dealing with the division's air defence batteries and even there, threat alert systems will be governed by rules supplemented with what will be AI based shoot-don't shoot prompts.

Our AD system of the eighties which was good against air and helo systems of the time is till needed but there's a whole lot of lower level crap now that needs to be managed at very low levels.

I think it is fair to say where you are dealing with sections with a 10 to 20 km reach courtesy of drones that suppressing the requisite zone necessary to permit the movement of crewed vehicles, with or without heavy armour and a 4 km cannon, is going to require a lot of pieces moving in sync.

What level of command is going to be necessary to suppress a 20 x 20 km area and secure conditions for an effective assault?

The old argument was 1:3. Or one level down. It took a platoon to stop a company, I think these days it might be fairer to suggest it only takes a section to stymie a battalion.

 

[Kirkhill]

Maybe this would help...

Elbit sells new batch of Iron Fist protective kit for CV90 vehicles

Elbit stated that the new contract follows a milestone achieved in September 2025, when executives staged a live-fire demonstration in Europe.

www.defensenews.com

I wonder if the Ukrainians are using it with their scrim nets.