Future Armour

[Retired AF Guy]

Interesting this.

The article describes it as a replacement for the CVR(T) but I'm not sure if some of these are in use as IFVs with the two mech battalions in the Latvian mechanized infantry brigade. With two batches of 42 it seems that this is probably where the ASCODs will go.

This immediately raises two points of interest for me:

First is that the Latvian's, who know their own country and defence needs the best, chose to go with tracks over the 8 wheeled stuff we use. There's no better bias than confirmation bias - and yes I have that in spades over tracks;

The second is the speed of contract to first vehicle. It's brilliant and the fact that it's a GDLS system (are you listening CA?) is excellent. It looks like it might be a viable - and locally produceable - product alternative over the CV 90 for Canada. Both of those systems fit in better with our Swedish/Danish (CV90) and Spanish (ASCOD Pizzaro), and now Latvian, allies.

On the other hand, next-door neighbour Lithuania is acquiring 900+ Patria 6x6 wheeled APCs. The Patria is also in service with Sweden, Finland, Latvia, Denmark, Germany and possibly the UK.

FW-MAG Future Warfare Magazine - Lithuania announces acquisition plan for 936 PATRIA 6x6

Lithuania announces acquisition plan for 936 PATRIA 6x6

www.fw-mag.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Interesting this.

The article describes it as a replacement for the CVR(T) but I'm not sure if some of these are in use as IFVs with the two mech battalions in the Latvian mechanized infantry brigade. With two batches of 42 it seems that this is probably where the ASCODs will go.

This immediately raises two points of interest for me:

First is that the Latvian's, who know their own country and defence needs the best, chose to go with tracks over the 8 wheeled stuff we use. There's no better bias than confirmation bias - and yes I have that in spades over tracks;

The second is the speed of contract to first vehicle. It's brilliant and the fact that it's a GDLS system (are you listening CA?) is excellent. It looks like it might be a viable - and locally produceable - product alternative over the CV 90 for Canada. Both of those systems fit in better with our Swedish/Danish (CV90) and Spanish (ASCOD Pizzaro), and now Latvian, allies.

Latvia - 250 km by 450 km - 64,000 km2
Hunter road speed of 70 kmh
3.5 hrs North South
6.5 hrs East West

Latvia buying Patria CAVS 6x6 (>200 WAPC and 59 WC2 Vehicles)

Latvia orders more Patria 6x6 vehicles | Shephard

The first Latvian-made Common Armoured Vehicle System (CAVS) 6x6 armoured personnel carrier was delivered to the Latvian National Armed Forces (NAF) in August, and more than 200 vehicles are expected to be delivered by 2029.

www.shephardmedia.com

....

Lithuania buying Patria CAVS 6x6 (900 or so)

Also buying 100 CV90

Lithuania Approves Acquisition of 100 CV90 Infantry Fighting Vehicles

Lithuania’s State Defence Council has approved the acquisition of 100 CV90 MkIV infantry fighting vehicles.

thedefensepost.com

...

Wheels (amphibious wheels) and Tracks (not amphibious)

....

Previously these armies operated BTRs and BMPs, wheels and tracks.

 

[FJAG]

On the other hand, next-door neighbour Lithuania is acquiring 900+ Patria 6x6 wheeled APCs. The Patria is also in service with Sweden, Finland, Latvia, Denmark, Germany and possibly the UK.

Lithuania buying Patria CAVS 6x6 (900 or so)

Also buying 100 CV90

Yup. tracked IFVs for heavy combined arms forces, wheeled APCs for medium infantry - like Germany uses Puma and Lynx for combined arms Panzergrenadiers and Boxer for Jaegers. I'm not saying there isn't a roll for armoured wheeled vehicles - combined arms isn't one of them.

$0.02

 

[Kirkhill]

Yup. tracked IFVs for heavy combined arms forces, wheeled APCs for medium infantry - like Germany uses Puma and Lynx for combined arms Panzergrenadiers and Boxer for Jaegers. I'm not saying there isn't a roll for armoured wheeled vehicles - combined arms isn't one of them.

$0.02

All the more reason to turn all the tracks over to the RCAC, along with their panzergrenadiers.

 

[McG]

Which goes back to my general principle - get a purpose built vehicle designed for the most arduous task, and don’t try to make a base vehicle something it is not.

That's not the Canadian way! You have to start with the simplest variant (infantry section carrier) with the intent to figure out everything else once that is into fielding, and then be surprised when it is realized the chosen common platform cannot support the mass of the recovery, fitter, and engineer variants ... who could have guessed that would happen again?

 

[FJAG]

All the more reason to turn all the tracks over to the RCAC, along with their panzergrenadiers.

Not in my mind. At the end of the day, the infantry skills of grenadiers are not much different from the light folks barring the riding around in metal shells and the place to dismount - to be specific it is easier to have a common training system for infanteers of all stripes rather than to have a separate one for grenadiers and one for jaegers and light and para and mountain. Start with a base infanteer and then do specilized add-on training.

There may be a case to be made for the three man vehicle crew - there's clearly some commonality respecting the driver, gunner and commander that might translate with the tankers, but then again mech IFVs don't always drive around - frequently they are parked and you need more dismounted foot pounder skills. I'm open to either concept.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not in my mind. At the end of the day, the infantry skills of grenadiers are not much different from the light folks barring the riding around in metal shells and the place to dismount - to be specific it is easier to have a common training system for infanteers of all stripes rather than to have a separate one for grenadiers and one for jaegers and light and para and mountain. Start with a base infanteer and then do specilized add-on training.

There may be a case to be made for the three man vehicle crew - there's clearly some commonality respecting the driver, gunner and commander that might translate with the tankers, but then again mech IFVs don't always drive around - frequently they are parked and you need more dismounted foot pounder skills. I'm open to either concept.

Turn all three RCAC regiments into Combined Arms units in the heavy brigade.

I am sure you are right about the lack of difference between a dismounted grenadier and a light trooper. But you gain unit cohesion.

And there should be nothing to stop a fed up rifleman deciding to move from infantry to armour.

Meanwhile infantry has enough on its plate with fighting in every other environment.

 

[FJAG]

Turn all three RCAC regiments into Combined Arms units in the heavy brigade.

I am sure you are right about the lack of difference between a dismounted grenadier and a light trooper. But you gain unit cohesion.

And there should be nothing to stop a fed up rifleman deciding to move from infantry to armour.

Meanwhile infantry has enough on its plate with fighting in every other environment.

As I said, I'm open and wouldn't stand in the way of either.

It's easy at the DP1 level where both ptes and 2Lts come in and take either a basic infantry or basic crewman course and then get posted to a specific unit where additional courses/training on type is given. It gets more tricky for a small army like ours as career progression may require individuals to move between units for which they have little original training or experience. It's already hard enough to keep up with training folks as it is.

 

[ueo]

My only quibble is about designing for the most arduous conditions. That results in over-engineered and over-priced solutions. I would rather engineer for the anticipated situation and have other tools on hand for different situations. Then it is incumbent on the users not to misuse their tools.

Whaaat?

 

[Kirkhill]

IDV CL2X Hybrid Uncrewed Light Tank Emerges as Robotic Wingman for Main Battle Tanks

IDV unveils the CL2X uncrewed light tank, a hybrid combat UGV designed to operate alongside main battle tanks.

www.armyrecognition.com

16 tonne tracked robot with a 30mm Leonardo HITFIST remote turret.

 

[Kirkhill]

"The conversation explores the role of artificial intelligence in warfare, the challenges of scaling military production, and how robots could eventually take over many front-line tasks — while still leaving a critical role for infantry."

Somebody has to manage rogue robots.....

But the target is replacement of 80 to 90% of infantry on the Ukrainian front line by robots.

https://kyivindependent.com/why-ukraine-is-betting-on-ground-drones-explained/

....

But here is a question

The large UGV: Why?

The larger vehicle is just a single point of concentration that makes for a large target and it still has to communicate on the Electro-Magnetic Spectrum

A Next-Gen Heavy UGV Concept Emerges Under Patria-RENK Collab

Thales Australia has reworked the Bushmaster protected mobility vehicle into a new variant with improved capability, connectivity, and survivability.

thedefensepost.com

This article showcases a new Heavy APC armed with 14 70mm rockets.

Rheinmetall Mission Master Demonstration | Joint Forces News

The Rheinmetall Mission Master unmanned ground vehicle has shown what it can do at an Ammunition Capability Demonstration in South Africa.

www.joint-forces.com

This article showcases a light UGV also armed with 14 70mm rockets that can be slung underneath a Griffon and built for a tenth of the price?

Why build on Heavy Armoured UGV for millions when one million will buy you 10 to 20 turreted UGVs with 30-40mm cannons and GMGs and 70mm APKWS missiles?

 

[KevinB]

"The conversation explores the role of artificial intelligence in warfare, the challenges of scaling military production, and how robots could eventually take over many front-line tasks — while still leaving a critical role for infantry."

Somebody has to manage rogue robots.....

But the target is replacement of 80 to 90% of infantry on the Ukrainian front line by robots.

https://kyivindependent.com/why-ukraine-is-betting-on-ground-drones-explained/

....

But here is a question

The large UGV: Why?

The larger vehicle is just a single point of concentration that makes for a large target and it still has to communicate on the Electro-Magnetic Spectrum

A Next-Gen Heavy UGV Concept Emerges Under Patria-RENK Collab

Thales Australia has reworked the Bushmaster protected mobility vehicle into a new variant with improved capability, connectivity, and survivability.

thedefensepost.com

This article showcases a new Heavy APC armed with 14 70mm rockets.

Rheinmetall Mission Master Demonstration | Joint Forces News

The Rheinmetall Mission Master unmanned ground vehicle has shown what it can do at an Ammunition Capability Demonstration in South Africa.

www.joint-forces.com

This article showcases a light UGV also armed with 14 70mm rockets that can be slung underneath a Griffon and built for a tenth of the price?

Why build on Heavy Armoured UGV for millions when one million will buy you 10 to 20 turreted UGVs with 30-40mm cannons and GMGs and 70mm APKWS missiles?

Because a heavier one can do stuff like Mine plowing, assault breaching, defensive earthworks.

 

[Kirkhill]

Because a heavier one can do stuff like Mine plowing, assault breaching, defensive earthworks.

Fair - but unless you absolutely need that mass why build a 10, or even 30 tonne, vehicle to carry a payload that can be toted by a half tonne UGV?

The video in the article is really interesting. It covers a lot of ground.

 

[Kirkhill]

Maybe the Sappers should be adding these to their tool kit... if the infantry, even with swarms of robots on their side is still going to have to hang around ground zero just to display possession.

Komatsu | 14CM15

www.komatsu.com