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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

As for the helicopter base of the force.

Keep the Griffons.

Add in UH-1Y Venoms and AH-1Z Vipers.

The Vipers and Venoms upgrade the Griffons power and MTOW from 1800 shaft horse power and 5400 kg to 3100 shp and 8400 kg. The empty weights also increase from 3400 kg to 5400 kg but the disposable load increases from 2000 kg to 3000 kg. That extra tonne means the ability to start lifting UGVs, ATVs, UTVs, TMPs (Edit: RHIBs) and even light guns along with their crews. Or carrying a heavier load of mounted guns, bullets, missiles and sensors.
 
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An 800 shp, (empty wt 1200 kg, operating wt 1500 kg) helicopter with a one tonne payload. Optionally armed, optionally manned, in service in the RCAF, operated by every helicopter pilot in the RCAF, and manufactured in Quebec on an open production line.

CH-139 Jet Ranger
Bell 407 Jet Ranger

Bell ARH-70 Arapaho Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter

Firescout MQ-8C UAS - Armed Recce, Surveillance and Logistics.

Compatible with Army Ops, CC-130s, CC-177s and A-400s and the AOPS, AORs and CSCs.

Does that make it a candidate for an Uber Helicopter? An unmanned helicopter which the "pilot", or passenger, commands rather than flies? Order a pick up. Command a loiter. Instruct a come back and get me. Deliver another crate of ammo. Pick up the casualties.
 
JLTV - 2 variants
Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV) - USAASC

I posted the HMTT link above -- but by and large those two platforms should fill all the "Wheeled" needs of an Army at this point (I used "wheeled" because the LAV being wheeled but doesn't fall into that category.

I think the BAE BsV 10 is a much better vehicle for Canada than the LAV - at least some some roles.
Sweden adding to BvS10 fleet, ordering 127 more of the all-terrain vehicles
as like the BV 206 it is a solid off-road system that can be used into the Arctic but still in the South most parts of Canada - and overseas as needed.
Even if only 1 Bde's worth would be procured it allows significant mobility improvements in non wheeled terrain (bog, deep snow etc).
 
ch-139-jet-ranger-fact-sheet-image.png
US_Army_ARH-70.jpg
L7DoOBE6MRFGK5S2v13pLgRKEXedzLDpLQZEmrKLANoeT4hlJnWVFcnrR33eWQGqZL3zkUq1hr2EyQUZJYp5H22iQg8Kub62w0ihf6E6bNXSh_1TdK5unoEBwxBPGx4ybzTLeA


An 800 shp, (empty wt 1200 kg, operating wt 1500 kg) helicopter with a one tonne payload. Optionally armed, optionally manned, in service in the RCAF, operated by every helicopter pilot in the RCAF, and manufactured in Quebec on an open production line.

CH-139 Jet Ranger
Bell 407 Jet Ranger

Bell ARH-70 Arapaho Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter

Firescout MQ-8C UAS - Armed Recce, Surveillance and Logistics.

Compatible with Army Ops, CC-130s, CC-177s and A-400s and the AOPS, AORs and CSCs.

Does that make it a candidate for an Uber Helicopter? An unmanned helicopter which the "pilot", or passenger, commands rather than flies? Order a pick up. Command a loiter. Instruct a come back and get me. Deliver another crate of ammo. Pick up the casualties.
If you want to stick with Bell
Bell V-280 - Future Long Range Assault Aircraft
 

For the same reasons we're sticking with one ship-builder, and one LAV-builder, one small arms supplier and one ammunition supplier. It is also the reason I would propose engaging Rheinmetall in Quebec for a broader range of GBAD and UGV solutions.

Likewise, the BAE Hagglunds BV series - we should try and recreate Perrin Beatty's licenced contract with Foremost of Calgary to produce 400 Bv206s. Foremost does rough terrain tracked logistics for the oil industry in the north. But they move a bit slower than the Hagglunds designs.

This is all about domestic security of supply and "picking winners" is a legitimate national security strategy.
 
I agree on the Bv series but I am not sold on the heavier armoured Bv206S and the larger BvS10 (armoured or unarmoured). And definitely not the Bronco.

This is the reason I like the Bv206 series.

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Rather than this

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Although the Bv206 and Bv206S mixed fleet would be good.

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The soft top fits inside the Chinook, everything can be underslung, and they all fit inside the Herc.
 
Is a helicopter-based force really a viable expeditionary option for us? How many helicopters and how many heavy lift aircraft do you need to deploy and support a heliborne force large enough to be of sufficient size to make a significant military impact? A Battalion/Battle Group minimum?

Would you be better off using our limited airlift capability to deploy a force using light vehicles that would have a significantly lower logistical support requirement than a heliborne force and not be tied to a vulnerable airfield. How survivable would a heliborne force be operating near the front in a peer conflict?
 
Is a helicopter-based force really a viable expeditionary option for us? How many helicopters and how many heavy lift aircraft do you need to deploy and support a heliborne force large enough to be of sufficient size to make a significant military impact? A Battalion/Battle Group minimum?

Would you be better off using our limited airlift capability to deploy a force using light vehicles that would have a significantly lower logistical support requirement than a heliborne force and not be tied to a vulnerable airfield. How survivable would a heliborne force be operating near the front in a peer conflict?
A tilt rotor could self deploy and air refuel
 
A tilt rotor could self deploy and air refuel
Still only seats two more troops than a Griffon. How many do you need to deploy and support a Battle Group sized force? How close to the front can they operate in a peer conflict...and once the troops disembark they are foot mobile only.

By comparison, now many troops in MRAZR's or DAGORs (or BV206's) could you deploy by Herc and Globemaster that would have mobility in the battle space?
 
Still only seats two more troops than a Griffon. How many do you need to deploy and support a Battle Group sized force? How close to the front can they operate in a peer conflict...and once the troops disembark they are foot mobile only.

By comparison, now many troops in MRAZR's or DAGORs (or BV206's) could you deploy by Herc and Globemaster that would have mobility in the battle space?
I don't view them as an either or -- I view both vehicles and vertical lift to be key components
 
The key element is selecting vehicles that are compatible with the available vertical lift. If we want to lift more of the heavier vehicles then we're going to need to get you more Chinooks.

The Tilt-Rotors I see more as a CanSOFCom vehicle - for getting small teams to inhospitable locations discretely in a hurry.

A lot can still be done with conventional helicopters. Especially in a Dispersed Operations where company combat teams will be spread out.

At the same time I am inclined to still be keeping a LAV/Leo CA Brigade on the Swedish model as well as a LAV based Cavalry regiment in each of two Light Brigades. We have the airlift to bring in the occasional troop of LAVs to support the deployment of Light Battalions/Companies. If the terrain permits.

Two troops of CVRTs made a big difference to the effectiveness of 8 Lt Bns in the Falklands.
 
The key element is selecting vehicles that are compatible with the available vertical lift. If we want to lift more of the heavier vehicles then we're going to need to get you more Chinooks.

The Tilt-Rotors I see more as a CanSOFCom vehicle - for getting small teams to inhospitable locations discretely in a hurry.

A lot can still be done with conventional helicopters. Especially in a Dispersed Operations where company combat teams will be spread out.
I am decidedly not enamored with the Griffon - also after counting 440+ holes in a Blackhawk we came in on - I decided that speed is much safer.
Seeing lots of green tracer coming uo at you isn't fun - when you realize that for everyone you see there are 3 rounds you don't...

Still only seats two more troops than a Griffon. How many do you need to deploy and support a Battle Group sized force? How close to the front can they operate in a peer conflict...and once the troops disembark they are foot mobile only.

By comparison, now many troops in MRAZR's or DAGORs (or BV206's) could you deploy by Herc and Globemaster that would have mobility in the battle space?
It can carry way more than 2x the Griffon -- (over 12k versus 5 for the Griffon) the Griffon is a 6 pax max combat load - vice 12 for the 280.
Every other Military have made the decision (and a lot in Canada too) that the Griffon is not a suitable combat helo.

You need an airmobile option in current operations - if just for CSAR and MedEvac - but realistically to rapidly move troops or resupply/reinforce complex terrain where land vehicles cannot do so easily.





In Afghan - Hooks generally launched after the Apaches (if there was any AH cover at all) - as they are much faster.

At the same time I am inclined to still be keeping a LAV/Leo CA Brigade on the Swedish model as well as a LAV based Cavalry regiment in each of two Light Brigades. We have the airlift to bring in the occasional troop of LAVs to support the deployment of Light Battalions/Companies. If the terrain permits.

Two troops of CVRTs made a big difference to the effectiveness of 8 Lt Bns in the Falklands.
The 280 can do almost 1,400 miles self deploying solo - plus it can refuel in the air. Self Deployment at least to a more localized to the front location reduces a significant stressor on the air/sealift.

I agree with you on mobility options - I think more Hooks are needed in the long run -- but I wouldn't waste anymore cash on Griffons - it was a bygone bird when it came into service...
 
I am decidedly not enamored with the Griffon - also after counting 440+ holes in a Blackhawk we came in on - I decided that speed is much safer.
Seeing lots of green tracer coming uo at you isn't fun - when you realize that for everyone you see there are 3 rounds you don't...


It can carry way more than 2x the Griffon -- (over 12k versus 5 for the Griffon) the Griffon is a 6 pax max combat load - vice 12 for the 280.
Every other Military have made the decision (and a lot in Canada too) that the Griffon is not a suitable combat helo.

You need an airmobile option in current operations - if just for CSAR and MedEvac - but realistically to rapidly move troops or resupply/reinforce complex terrain where land vehicles cannot do so easily.





In Afghan - Hooks generally launched after the Apaches (if there was any AH cover at all) - as they are much faster.


The 280 can do almost 1,400 miles self deploying solo - plus it can refuel in the air. Self Deployment at least to a more localized to the front location reduces a significant stressor on the air/sealift.

I agree with you on mobility options - I think more Hooks are needed in the long run -- but I wouldn't waste anymore cash on Griffons - it was a bygone bird when it came into service...
Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to the V-280 Valor. Definitely a much better option than the Griffon and numerous roles it could fulfill.

However, what I'm not convinced of is the idea of making helicopters/VTOLs the primary focus of our military as per Kirkhill's 2 x Heliborne Brigades and one Heavy Brigade.

Whichever aircraft you use (Griffon, Valor, etc.) the cost would be huge. The Osprey costs in the ballpark of $75 million per unit which is I believe ballpark around the same as a C-130J Hercules which would give you much greater and versatile lift capability. Bell says the Valor will be around the same price as the AH-64E Apache (~$69 million). A CH-47 Chinook is around $32 million, and the Bell 525 is around $15 million (for the civilian version? Say $20 million for a military version?).

By comparison, an M1A2 Abrams costs about $9 million, a LAV around $7 million, a JLTV is $400,000 and a Polaris Dagor $150,000.

I just can't see getting enough helicopters (of whatever type) to equip two Brigades of Infantry. It's just not realistic from a cost point of view or in my opinion, an opportunity cost point of view in light of the many other things you could buy with that money.
 
My take on the Griffon is it is the heliborne version of the MilCOTS vs SMP truck debate.

The Griffon will continue to serve well enough domestically where "440+" perforations are unlikely (unless hail or 7.62mm ball point). The fleet can be upgraded/replaced over time in Squadron size sets. With Hook additions. And I do see a place for the Valor. Just like I see a place for Challengers in the jet transport fleet. Sometimes you need to move a small crew fast.

But as GR66 points out it is a lot of capability to be used just humping a dozen infantry around Southern Alberta, or Nunavut.
On the other hand maybe it is just the thing when dodging bullets in Afghanistan. But 440 mph Mosquitoes were being brought down with machine guns and 20mm cannons and F100s were downed by Golden BBs.

Like FJAG I see no reason to chuck perfectly useable kit just because something better comes along. I would still keep the Griffon as domestic utility bird even as the fleet was upgraded to the marinized UH-1Y, AH-1Z pair. Aircraft that can operate over salt water as well as dust, snow and fresh water. Aircraft that can operate from an AOPS, a CSC or an AOR or a Multi-Role Support Ship. And that can self-deploy. Not intercontinentally but certainly over long distances.

With respect to the helicopter vs LAV debate. Domestically I see a lot more utility in helicopters than in LAVs. With 250 or so small battalions of a village, or large company every 100 km or so (30 to 40,000 km2) with no roads or rail connecting them, floods and fires, fuel and food shortages, lost souls, medical emergencies, I see lots of opportunities for utility helicopters to make themselves useful when not carting Anti-Tank teams around some distant theatre.

Equally I see lots of places for helicopters to add to logistical support overseas in peace and war. And heliborne troops making a difference in all types of combat. Especially when operating with national combat air support.

We have about a Division of troops (a small Division Kev, but a Division). I looked into 10 CAB, supporting 10th Mtn Div. G2G will correct me I know.

10 CAB flies 4 Battalions (apologies to the Air Cav) and an independent Coy.

The Air Cav "Battalion" (Squadron) is an Armed Recce Squadron that was stripped of its Kiowas (Jet Rangers) and issued 24 Apaches (10 tonnes). As well it has a "Company" (Troop) outfitted with 8 RQ-7 UAS (0.2 tonnes)

The main element in the Brigade is 10 Combat Avn Regt which owns the other flying battalions and the independent company.

The first battalion is an attack battalion and flies an additional 24 Apaches (10 tonnes)
The second battalion is an assault battalion and flies 20 Blackhawks (10 tonnes)
The third battalion is the general support battalion and it flies a mixed fleet of 12 Chinooks (23 tonnes) and another 20 Blackhawks in various specialty configurations.
The independent company flies 12 MQ-1C Grey Eagle UAS (1.5 tonne) - The RPAS MQ-9 Predator is a 6 tonne aircraft.

So, in total, we are looking at 48 Apaches, 40 Blackhawks, 12 Chinooks, 12 Grey Eagle UAS and 8 Raven UAS.

In the RCAF we have 85 Griffons and 15 Chinooks. And that is augmentable with SARs 4 Twin Otters and 15 CH-149s as well as 17 J-series Hercs and 5 CC-177s to enhance tactical air movement domestically. And internationally.

Edit: Actually with all the hard strips around Canada the troops could fly in relative luxury in the CC-150s and join up with flown-in kit.

I will stipulate the Griffon is not a Blackhawk. Even the Venom and Viper are not Blackhawks. But they would improve the capabilities of the force over time. And maybe you aren't allowed to buy Zulus because they look wrong but you could, perhaps, buy Yankees and use them as better gunship escorts. And if you get a friendly government maybe they will let you buy some proper gunships.

Support vehicles that can be delivered by Griffons and Chinooks, designed to accompany and support foot-borne troops over broken, soft and wet terrain should also be acquired for local, short-range manoeuver on the ground. Long range movement (50 km or more) would be by air.

In the meantime work can be done with the kit available.

Now if only the infantry were properly equipped with the right suite of man portable support weapons they could carry with them in the helicopters that were available.

In the meantime, with the LAVs/Leos and ACSVs that are on hand or in production - FJAG could get a full Swedish model Combined Arms Brigade of 3 Pansar Units and a Cavalry Unit, preposition one battle group set in Poland, keep another set in the warehouse in Canada, and still have vehicles left over for training regs and reserves at home. Vehicles enough, that, if required a light battalion could be re-roled to supply LAV companies.

And then we can start concentrating on the Arty.
 
Kirkhill, your numbers 👍🏼 confirm that Canada’s entire green aviation capability equates to but one CAB/GSAB(-), and there is probably close to a small icecube’s chance in a super-nova of having any non-green rotary assets anywhere near a deployed land force element. At best, rotary use practically wouldn’t be dedicated/committed constantly to anything above BG-sized formations. The 100% numbers are never seen practically in use because the fleet size numbers we built around serviceability/op availability numbers. That’s why you’d probably only see a Coy Gp lifted in an airmobile op, using 4-6 Chinooks. Same reasons I doubt that you’d ever see an airborne use of 5 CC-177s. If the TRUH program delivers a V-280 or even Defiant-like capability to replace the Griffon, I’m pretty sure that it won’t be anywhere close to the 85 figure of the current Griffon fleet.
 
Kirkhill, your numbers 👍🏼 confirm that Canada’s entire green aviation capability equates to but one CAB/GSAB(-), and there is probably close to a small icecube’s chance in a super-nova of having any non-green rotary assets anywhere near a deployed land force element. At best, rotary use practically wouldn’t be dedicated/committed constantly to anything above BG-sized formations. The 100% numbers are never seen practically in use because the fleet size numbers we built around serviceability/op availability numbers. That’s why you’d probably only see a Coy Gp lifted in an airmobile op, using 4-6 Chinooks. Same reasons I doubt that you’d ever see an airborne use of 5 CC-177s. If the TRUH program delivers a V-280 or even Defiant-like capability to replace the Griffon, I’m pretty sure that it won’t be anywhere close to the 85 figure of the current Griffon fleet.
Where it should be triple if not more...
I can find a role/need for 310 280's and 105 hooks - plus another 300 AH - and I could mission creep it to many more if given $ ;)


Years ago it took 3 Griffons / section (yes section) on a small airmobile op from Calgary to somewhere in K Country - it was winter, so the Toboggan group etc took space and weight as well as snowshoes etc.
That worked out to 12 / Platoon - it got scrubbed halfway through - and HL's where used as there where not enough Griffons and they burned too much fuel to move the 50km to keep running sorties.

In my experience the CH-135 was actually more capable - at least from a GiB perspective.
 
Kirkhill, your numbers 👍🏼 confirm that Canada’s entire green aviation capability equates to but one CAB/GSAB(-), and there is probably close to a small icecube’s chance in a super-nova of having any non-green rotary assets anywhere near a deployed land force element. At best, rotary use practically wouldn’t be dedicated/committed constantly to anything above BG-sized formations. The 100% numbers are never seen practically in use because the fleet size numbers we built around serviceability/op availability numbers. That’s why you’d probably only see a Coy Gp lifted in an airmobile op, using 4-6 Chinooks. Same reasons I doubt that you’d ever see an airborne use of 5 CC-177s. If the TRUH program delivers a V-280 or even Defiant-like capability to replace the Griffon, I’m pretty sure that it won’t be anywhere close to the 85 figure of the current Griffon fleet.

Thanks for confirming my numbers. I also agree with your political (both military and civil) assessment of the probabilities.

But I stand by my position that there is capability there. Capability that should have an exploitable plan. Even if it is an in extremis plan. IF, that notorious word, IF it were required could Canada deploy, and sustain, a light brigade in Nunavut, or Alaska, with national assets. And I will stipulate that we are talking about dispersed company teams operating from localised logistical and support hubs. The fixed wing assets are simply to get to those hubs. I agree that sucking up all the C-17s and the Hercs in a single parachute drop is unlikely, although, again, independent company teams could be deployed and sustained with the assets on hand, I believe.

Is the capability equivalent to that of a single CAB/GSAB(-)? Absolutely not. But we have some capabilities in the field that could be effectively employed to cover much of the full spectrum of conflict likely to be encountered domestically and in North America. In that context even the LAVs have utility if combined with the Stryker BCTs in the States. And the Light Bdes/Bns could operate with the US Infantry BCTs.

My broader point is that we focus on the particular and ignore the general.

We spend our time in fora like this debating how we can fight in the most absolutely dire set of circumstances and then concentrate our efforts on designing a force for that particular case. We then assume that that particular force will have general application to all other parts of the spectrum.

In the process we develop, and justify, a tiny perfect force. A force that never seems to become perfect but always becomes tinier. A force that aspires to contribute to a multi-national high-end conflict that might happen and yet spends its time doing "other stuff" in the inconsequential part of the spectrum that we assume we can cover.

My primary point is, rather than detailing what we can't do because of what we lack, can we focus for a bit on what we can do with what we have?

That is where I see the big difference between us and the Europeans, particularly the Scandinavians and the Easterners. They are forced to look at the threat, the Russians, ask themselves what can the Russians do, then ask what can be done to counter them with whats on hand. Even if it is just molotovs, sticky bombs and Blacker Bombards.

Once that exercise is complete then they, and we, can look at our domestic/NORAD capability gaps and start to fill them.

And the first place I would look to find the capabilities to plug those gaps is the Artillery. Artillery purchased to support the forces and capabilities we have.

FJAG is right. (I don't say that too often).

I have been focusing on the Chinese threat. Because it is in the headlines and it exercises our American friends, neighbours and allies. As well as the Aussies, Kiwis and Brits.

The Russians I have relegated to a side show with the greatest likelihood of contact being, in words that CzechPivo might recognize,"in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing". For the rest of us that was Chamberlain justifying his inaction over the Sudetenland in 1938. The Sudetenland was less than 1000 km from Dover, less than the distance from Windsor to Quebec City and reachable by the existing ferries, roads, rail and aircraft of the day.

But, after taking another look at the Arctic, in the context of the a long range US expeditionary capability, the context of the establishment of Russia's new bases, the context of Russia's predilection for undeclared regional conflicts in its border zones, and context of the immense instability in the energy market, after taking another look at the Arctic, the probability of having to deploy troops to Alert, to Resolute, to Inuvik, to Iqaluit, to Thule, or even to Little Diomede is increasing. It is approaching the likelihood of a Russo-Scandinavian conflict. And perhaps it is more likely. Scandinavia is a little too close to Russia's strategic infrastructure at Murmansk, St Petersburg and Kaliningrad. And it is a hard target. That would not be a Ukrainian war of little green men and a constantly running sore. It would quickly escalate to a major, international conflict. And economically it would gain Russia very little.

Conversely, all that arctic natural gas that we are unwilling to exploit (MacKenzie Pipeline), Putin has already started exploiting for geopolitical power and for treasure.

The arctic was protected for decades, generations, by the prospect of nuclear conflict. People have worked around that obstacle long enough that the fear of nuclear conflict is not as visceral, nor as widely held, as it was.

Ukraine is a modern country with well developed infrastructure to all points of its borders, well connected and with a useful national army and a reasonably well developed national arms industry. And only one major exploitable ethnic split.

Compared to Canada Ukraine is a hard target.

What happens if, instead of barricades showing up on railway tracks, unfortunate events such as that at the radar station PIN-3 alluded to by G2G and Kevin, start increasing? Or the locals in the north, like those in Greenland, start getting better financial offers for their resources. How long until the frozen north becomes as unstable as the Donbas?

And when would the US decide it had to risk direct confrontation with Russia by assisting Canada with a domestic problem?

All this to say that we need to focus on the risks at home and how we can manage them with what we have.

Then figure out the gaps and what we need to fill them.

And, by all means, look at the Artillery first. It can likely be procured, faster and cheaper, and is becoming more capable, than Air Force assets. Although the difference between a Guided Projectile and a RATO assisted jet powered UAS/Drone is becoming vanishingly small.

The need to transport troops and assets will never go away. That technology will constantly change. It will require constant replacement and upgrading.

Oops. I did it again. :giggle:
 
In addition to the economic advantages that might accrue from securing a bigger chunk of the arctic gas revenues (even by just firming the Russian claim to the entire Lomonosov Ridge) there is a fair chunk of strategic real estate in the north on which the US depends. Real estate on Canada's sovereign territory that the US expects Canada to defend and maintain.

In addition to Alert, and the RCAF's FOLs, there are 47 North Warning Radar sites that need to be protected. Radar sites that are being upgraded at US insistence.

One of the reasons the USMC has created their Littoral Regiments is precisely to create large platoon sized packets that can hold sufficient ground to deploy sensors and missiles. Their evaluation is that each site will require at least 40 to 50 infantry marines in addition to the artillery and anti-aircraft specialists. And that is assuming that each site can be relocated when the need presents itself.

Could Canada currently deploy, sustain and support 50 or 60 platoons to act as security forces in the north if those sites started having unfortunate fires?
 
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