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Operational Service Medals?

Pusser said:
Perhaps it's because these things take time and people to sort through the files, order the medals, check them, ship them, etc.  Many on this site have frequently advocated the wholesale hacking and slashing of "unneccessary" HQ staffs.  One of the consequences of this approach is that things like this tend to fall down the list of priorities and thus, they will be delayed because there will be fewer people to do more work.

It's only going to get worse folks...

It is actually going to get a lot better, as we will remove the multiple layers of bureaucracy and staff that mostly consist of Capts and LCdrs filling in each other's neato spreadsheets.

Infanteer, dapaterson and jollyjacktar have all hit the nail square on the head - and before you ask, yes, I have served in NDHQ, but I never drank the Kool Aid.

I hate to tell you this Pusser, but you are not the solution.  You are the problem.
 
Personal opinion.... H&A in the CF is broken.  Has been broken for a long time.

Anyone can look at their MPRR and see when they're due for their CD....why is there not some trigger built into the system that automatically orders and delivers the CD to the member's unit at 11.5 years....so that it's there waiting for awarding to the member...ON TIME.....it's not like anyone should be surprised that someone's 12th or 22nd or 32nd anniversary of service is coming up....the member knows it well....units recognize it...in fact, my current unit gives a day of short leave on your service anniversary (to be used w/in 30 days.)

Who here has actually seen a CD awarded to a member ON TIME?  EVER?  (Subtract the GG, who gets it on Day 1 in their job.)

Let's look at the above mentioned process...7 different approval stages.  And somehow, the medals awarded to the BGen have sailed through that, while the stuff for the troops is mired in the process. 

THAT is what's broken about the H&A system.

Know your people and promote their welfare. 

IMO, it appears that there is a failure to do that in this case.

NS


 
Yep still waiting for my CD1 due in Oct 2010, and my SWASM bars did my third tour in 2008.
 
NavyShooter said:
Personal opinion.... H&A in the CF is broken.  Has been broken for a long time.

Anyone can look at their MPRR and see when they're due for their CD....why is there not some trigger built into the system that automatically orders and delivers the CD to the member's unit at 11.5 years....so that it's there waiting for awarding to the member...ON TIME.....it's not like anyone should be surprised that someone's 12th or 22nd or 32nd anniversary of service is coming up....the member knows it well....units recognize it...in fact, my current unit gives a day of short leave on your service anniversary (to be used w/in 30 days.)

It relates to the inherent fear of risk that has become the way in the CF. What's it cost to mint a CD? Probably not alot. What number of personnel screw up in the last 6 months (less than 100 I would think), or have an error in their records that would award a CD when not entitled (maybe a few more, but not a huge number). But . . . , most don't want to manange the risk of having, maybe a hundred or even 500 hundres medals a year being returned after minting due to an error. The safest route is to ensure that everything is ready to go before staffing the request. That is what we do, choose the safest route.
 
NavyShooter said:
Personal opinion.... H&A in the CF is broken.  Has been broken for a long time.

Anyone can look at their MPRR and see when they're due for their CD....why is there not some trigger built into the system that automatically orders and delivers the CD to the member's unit at 11.5 years....so that it's there waiting for awarding to the member...ON TIME.....it's not like anyone should be surprised that someone's 12th or 22nd or 32nd anniversary of service is coming up....the member knows it well....units recognize it...in fact, my current unit gives a day of short leave on your service anniversary (to be used w/in 30 days.)

True, but there are people who do not have squeaky clean records which are not necessarily recorded/visible on their MPRR.

[EDIT to add:  This is administrative measure that may or may not be done by someone imputing data into HMRS.....or whatever to update MPRRs and we all know how that works.]
 
Not an issue. Check it before you hand it over. Sounds like an excellent job for the Adjt to task those young LT's to do.
 
If the staffing system can be fixed, that is streamlined, all the better. I have a copy of the Operational Hanbook for the First Canadian Army, Formation Organization, Staff Technique and Administration by John R. Grodzinski, 1996. On page 108 there is a discussion of the Honours and Awards system, which is well worth reading. The opening sentence reads "Awards were categorized as Immediate, Periodic, Special or Miscellaneous." Immediate awards were gallantry decorations  for a specific act or acts in battle, while Periodic were awards were for valuable services over a period of time, not necessarily under fire. Approval of both had been delegated to the Commander, 21st Army Group. Special awards were for the Victoria Cross, George Cross and George Medal which required special handling re substantiation of the circumstances and approval by higher authority. Miscellaneous awards were for long service or good service not in action medals.

The section includes the example of a recommendation for an immediate Military Cross to a lieutenant in the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment for a action on 12 Apr 45. It was received at brigade on 21 Apr, division 25 Apr, Corps 12 May, Army 23 May and was approved by Montgomery in Jun.

Edit to add: The award was gazetted on 24 Jul 45. In other words, from deed to official promulgation took just over three months. My source for this is the Service Publication CD "Courage & Service Second World War Awards to Canadians."

It would be gratifying if our system could approach this efficiency, which after all was in the days of handwritten drafts, manual typewriters, gestetners, snail mail and a real shooting war. Extra staffing by a myriad of committees won't do anything but impose delay after delay.
 
I believe it is Lt Black MC that Old Sweat is referring to.

Just to show that the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment treated all ranks equally, see att Sgt Westwood MM for an action three days previous, 9 Apr 45.

The IO of the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment was on ball as in the unit's short history there were 33 awards. I say IO as I have been told it was the IO (in a Inf Bn anyway) who wrote up the nominations at that time. Old Sweat will know.

I never received a nomination for an award of any description from a unit during my time as G1. The subject was continually brought up at Comd Conf, call msg etc. All a unit had to do was nominate and provide the info. The nomination would be written for them. Could not be easier.

A Bde Comd Commendation was designed (acrylic plaque with inserted coin plus folder/stationary), and promulgated. Very, very few pers were nominated. A Bde Coin was instituted for five years service (to be given out at the Xmas Dinner). Coin were pushed: not many were given away.

The staffing and timelines on an ORMM were honorific. At some point down the line (NDHQ ??) they had to be translated. My understanding of the screening process was: Unit, Bde, LFA, LFC, NDHQ, and the Board. A nomination from NDHQ has less steps. Never liked that.

Of the five ORMM's I wrote, three (two Reg F, one P Res) were awarded. Why several Reg F units never nominated these two individuals is beyond me.
 
It's another fine example of how the system is supposed to work, but it was from the 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment aka The Royal Canadian Dragoons, and not the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment.

Rifleman62 has raised another excellent point - for someone to receive an award, a recommendation has to be submitted.
 
DHH has Lt Black listed under the 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (RCD) vice 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment  (which only lists one decoration, an MM).  1 Cdn Armd Regt (RCD) is also listed vice 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (RCD).

Sgt Westwood is listed correctly.

LCol Churchill DSO, the first CO of 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment is listed under the 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (RCD).

I noticed this when researching material for Norm's Moyland Wood article for the Devils' Blast. I have emailed DHH on these errors and others and received a response.
 
captloadie said:
It relates to the inherent fear of risk that has become the way in the CF. What's it cost to mint a CD? Probably not alot. What number of personnel screw up in the last 6 months (less than 100 I would think), or have an error in their records that would award a CD when not entitled (maybe a few more, but not a huge number). But . . . , most don't want to manange the risk of having, maybe a hundred or even 500 hundres medals a year being returned after minting due to an error. The safest route is to ensure that everything is ready to go before staffing the request. That is what we do, choose the safest route.
Seems a balance might be struck by delivering a "tripwire" message to the member's chain of command at 11.25 or whatever; "barring a response indicating otherwise, subject member will be awarded the CD as of (date)."
 
PPCLI Guy said:
It is actually going to get a lot better, as we will remove the multiple layers of bureaucracy and staff that mostly consist of Capts and LCdrs filling in each other's neato spreadsheets.

Infanteer, dapaterson and jollyjacktar have all hit the nail square on the head - and before you ask, yes, I have served in NDHQ, but I never drank the Kool Aid.

I hate to tell you this Pusser, but you are not the solution. You are the problem.

You'll have to excuse me if I take that a little personally.  You don't know me.  You have never met me.  You have no idea how much time I have devoted over the years to streamlining processes and cutting out unnecessary BS.  I have locked horns with many on these issues.  Many times I've been successful, other times not so much.  The problem is intransigence at all levels that want immediate change in other folks' processes, but are unwilling to change their own approach or devote the resources necessary to make positive change.  Couple that with a fundamental lack of understanding of what is actually required to make the changes desired and we all get frustrated.

The fact is that no process is developed in isolation and no one lies awake at night dreaming up ways to complicate and bog it down.  Every step is designed for a purpose that at least at one time was real and necessary.  Should processes be reviewed periodically and perhaps changed?  Absolutely!  However, before we remove or streamline a process, we must first ensure that the original reason for it in the first place is no longer relevant.  Sadly, that step is often missed and we end up in worse situation than where we started.

Order a CD before the member is actually entitled in anticipation of awarding it on the day?  We used to do that, but there were enough situations where the CD had to be pulled back that it became untenable.  An individual mistake may not cost much (the actual cost of one CD is about $35), but this can add up and even $35 is bit much for scrap metal.

Too many levels of review?  Perhaps we should be asking ourselves what created that situation?  Why do commanders at each level want to see the nominations?  Perhaps the quality of the original submissions is less than adequate?  Considering that the CDS himself chairs the CF Decorations Advisory Committee, I would think that the commanders along the way would want to ensure that everything going there is well presented.  Sure, things seemed to go quicker 60 years ago, but people also seemed to write better then.

When you start hacking and slashing away at the support elements, don't be surprised if the level of support drops a little.  And no, I have not spent my entire career in Ottawa.  In fact, far from it.
 
Pusser said:
You'll have to excuse me if I take that a little personally.  You don't know me
You are correct.

From following through your posts for any length of time however, we can pretty well discern where you fit into the scheme of things. Sorry if your feelings are hurt, but I have to side with PPCLI Guy on this one.
 
Pusser said:
You'll have to excuse me if I take that a little personally.  You don't know me.  You have never met me.  You have no idea how much time I have devoted over the years to streamlining processes and cutting out unnecessary BS.  I have locked horns with many on these issues.  Many times I've been successful, other times not so much.  The problem is intransigence at all levels that want immediate change in other folks' processes, but are unwilling to change their own approach or devote the resources necessary to make positive change.  Couple that with a fundamental lack of understanding of what is actually required to make the changes desired and we all get frustrated.the CDS himself chairs the CF Decorations Advisory Committee, I would think that the commanders along the way would want to ensure that everything going there is well presented.  Sure, things seemed to go quicker 60 years ago, but people also seemed to write better then.


Pusser,

I am not at all surprised that you took this personally - I would have taken all of this the same way myself.  Moreover, I made it personal, and somewhat deliberately, and evidentally to some effect.  Having said that, you (specifically) are not the windmill at which I tilt.  Rather, it is the entire idea of staff officers who know better than commanders that is driving me here.  I, like you (albeit almost definitely in entirely different domains and likely in differing degrees / scale) have commanded at a few levels.  As such, I jealously guard the prerogatives of command, which are codified in the NDA and used to be absolute.  Sadly, they no longer are.  We have allowed commanders at every level to be neutered by risk adverse and process centered functionaries, to the overall detriment of the soldier / sailor etc.  That is what I can no longer abide.

If I as a hypothetical commander, nominate someone for an award, you, as a putative staff officer are obliged to find the way to make that happen, rather than explain the reasons why it should not.  The onus does not lie with the commander who was chosen by the leadership of the service in a highly stringent process to make hard decisions to actually explain himself.  Rather the onus lies with you who was posted to a staff position for multiple and competing reasons (the least of which is likely to be career potential development) to manifest my intent.

I do not mean all of that in an arrogant sense at all.  It is simply about roles.  Commanders decide.  Staff enable.  Being closer to the Clock Tower does not confer any special powers or intellectual capacity upon a staff officer.  He or she is still the same stellar performer / average plug / admin nightmare that he/she was in Edmonton or Esquimalt. 

So, processes (streamlined or otherwise) are not the answer.  As always, it is the output that matters, measured in its utility to a) achieving the mission, and b) serving the member.  Those who fail to see the difference are less than useful.  Sadly, many of them end up manning the process ramparts for the remnants of their careers, carefully scanning the horizons for any threats to their "processes".

How about we give commanders at all levels back their nuts and fire the those who screw it up (followed by beheading of those who chose the commander in the first place).  This will allow us to pull down the Guild Houses and lift the shroud of "process" that has driven us to multiple levels of overborne HQs.

When you start hacking and slashing away at the support elements, don't be surprised if the level of support drops a little.

Do not confuse support and headquarters.  They are not necessarily the same thing.



 
:nod:

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To add a somewhat different viewpoint, but one that speaks to what PPCLI Guy was saying:

I remember back in 1995 when I was an MS at LFWA G1. There was an Honours and Awards committee. This was ostensibly to ensure that submissions were properly managed for furtherance to Ottawa. The reality was that units would make nominations through their own committees (usually CO/RSM/Adjt etc), and LFWA would fuss with them, send them back, or outright refuse them. It was a very finely meshed sieve.

I was astonished by the process. I could not then, nor can I now understand how a staff function so dramatically affected a command prerogative. Given my experiences later in my career, I can see not much has changed. I think it bears remembering by staff at all levels that these recommendations are from Commander to Commander, not Commander to staff. It is certainly the role of staff to ensure that the "I"s are dotted and "T"s crossed, but not to return recommendations out of hand, or act as a filter. That job falls to the national honours committee. If a recommendation is properly formatted, it should go forward. The CO obviously thought the member was deserving and did his/her own due diligence in making the nomination. Neither should the volume of nominations be a reason for slowing down the process.

It used to irritate me as a SgtMaj to know that I would nominate someone and that paperwork would face committee at the unit, Area, Army, and then national level. In reality, there should be two committees - unit and national. The rest is for information purposes only.
 
Best Post Award!

I have not heard the term "plug" for years.

Was there an occasion when the CO of 3 PPCLI (name escapes me) resigned on principal during the mission to FYR?

ModlrMike: That is exactly what I posted about. I was the G1 at 38 CBG.
 
Another +300 from me.

 
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