Operational Usefullness of Reserve Forces

[Brad Sallows]

The reservists in 2PPCLI at Medak had been with the battalion deployed for what - 5 months? - plus workup time before that.  That fact must be borne in mind when people are tossing around assessments of how well reservists can measure up; I should think we can turn civilians into regulars in that period.  Generally time is required to integrate, cover the "supplemental" training gap, and complete the mission-specific training.  In special circumstances (experienced reservist, or short-term replacement for deployed pers on leave) little to no additional preparation may be required.  The real test will be a situation in which all hell breaks loose shortly after deployment.  It is worth maintaining reserves if they can be brought up to sufficient speed in a shorter period than civilians, and more importantly if there are reservists competent to be integrated above the rank of Pte(B).  The latter is more likely as long as the CF consistently seeks to include reserve augmentees in order to develop a base of reservists with more experience than evenings and weekends.

 

[dutchie]

The reservists in 2PPCLI at Medak had been with the battalion deployed for what - 5 months? - plus workup time before that.   That fact must be borne in mind when people are tossing around assessments of how well reservists can measure up; I should think we can turn civilians into regulars in that period.  

Care to expand on that? The troops in Medak were a few weeks away from going home, so they had been in theatre around 5 months, plus several months work-up, just for clarity sake.

Are you suggesting that had the battle occured 6 weeks into the deployment that the troops would have performed poorly? Obviously 5 months of experience in theatre improved their performance, but it would have had the same impact on Reg force pers. Do you think the gap would have been greater? I think not. Especially at that time.

Turn civies into batle ready soldiers in 5 months? Please forward your training plan to the CDS, I'm sure he would love to implement this. By your theory, we could take Reg Force recruits, train them in 5 months, and they would be battle ready. IIRC, an Infantry recruit has just finished his Battle School (or BIQ - whatever) by 5 months in......could you imagine a Coy worth of recruits in Medak? Think the outcome would be the same? Those Reservists were competent, skilled, and switch-on troops the day they walked into Bn on the first day of work-up. There is not way they would have performed the way they did had they not been. Don't forget that it wasn't just the Pte/Cpl types who were res, so were the Section Cdrs/2ICs (and up, I imagine).

 

[Infanteer]

Those Reservists were competent, skilled, and switch-on troops the day they walked into Bn on the first day of work-up. There is not way they would have performed the way they did had they not been. Don't forget that it wasn't just the Pte/Cpl types who were res, so were the Section Cdrs/2ICs (and up, I imagine).

There was a reserve Platoon Commander, wasn't there?

Anyways, your point ignores one of the most important factors - cohesion.  One disadvantage of cobbling together Reserve soldiers from across Canada and throwing them into a operational setting is that they are for the most part going to be unfamiliar with, their own capabilities (most have only faced 2-day Mo exercises), their mates (Neat hat, bud), and their leadership (takes a while to hammer out SOPs, familarity, etc, etc).  Throw something like this up against a determined enemy and you're going to have dead Canadian reservists.

When I deployed as part of an all-reservist company, we were blessed with two things:

1)  The company had been together for 6 months and deployed on a Domestic Operation.  6 months on Class C work-up with a reg force battalion - not much "calling up the reserves" in that, we were essentially Regs for a year.

2)  All the Officers were Reg Force Phase qualified and almost all the NCO's had multiple tours/reg force experience.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Are you suggesting that had the battle occured 6 weeks into the deployment that the troops would have performed poorly?

I certainly suggest they might have performed differently.  You and I can disagree that 5 months of time in theatre might have made a difference and that they had nothing more to learn about their jobs or about each other after they got off the plane.

 

[the 48th regulator]

In other words you are saying that;

I certainly suggest they might have performed differently

in that they is referring to all the fellas on the ground, right?

'Cause trust me, until the proverbial poop hits the fan no one can predicted how they will perform.  You just do your job.  I know many of us soldiers (reserve and reg)did when push came to shove.

tess

 

[Art Johnson]

Hey Tess right on

 

[aesop081]

In other words you are saying that;

in that they is referring to all the fellas on the ground, right?

'Cause trust me, until the proverbial poop hits the fan no one can predicted how they will perform.   You just do your job.   I know many of us soldiers (reserve and reg)did when push came to shove.

tess

well said.........cheers

 

[westie47]

As a guy who was there I can say this:

1. We did three months of work-up
2. There were incidents almost as soon as we got on the ground
3. A lot of guys had tours - to Cyprus
4. Yes the majority of leaders leaders in the rifle coys were regs, and some pretty damn good ones too, but, there were some pretty f****d up ones as well.  More than anyone would like to admit.
5. Yes I was a reservist in B Coy
6. And a good friend of mine who was also a reservist from my unit and was in my platoon in Croatia, was a senior NCO with 3VP in Afghanistan.  He said that tour was boring in comparison!
I don't care who you are, everyone acts differently under fire. Being a reg doesn't automatically make you a cool cucumber.
Yes I do agree that if we had to go on operations tomorrow we would be screwed, but that isn't our fault. If we had more training days and equipment we would be more prepared.

But do not underestimate us...the average reservist is higher educated, more lateral minded, and dedicated
Remember, there are some tards, but that's true for both sides of the fence.
If reservists are second class soldiers, why are there some in Wainwright teaching reg force BIQ?

 

[aesop081]

As a guy who was there I can say this:

But do not underestimate us...the average reservist is higher educated, more lateral minded, and dedicated

I agree with you except for this perticular point. I am quite dedicated , well educated and quite capable of lateral thinking and so are most reg soldiers i have worked with.   I beleive now that it is you who is generalizing ! If i could only master typing !!!

 

[westie47]

You're right, I am starting to generalize. I guess I thought that the whole reg/reserve thing went out in the 90's!

 

[Highland Lad]

Actually, I agree with Westie when he talks about level of education - to a point.

The average level of education among NCMs in the Reserves is higher... so what? The real indicator here is whether Buddy is capable of performing his/her duties as required on operations, and I have to give the edge to the regs, but only for a short time.

As has been related above, once on the ground, the lines between so-called full and part timers gets very blurry, especially when you consider that there's no such thing as a part-time CF soldier once you land in Bosnia, or Afghanistan, or wherever the next mission is. The only part-time soldiers I heard about over there where the local guys...

Professionalism (as in the ability and desire to do a good job) in the Reserves is very high, and I'll go toe-to-toe with anyone who says different - where we are lacking as an organization is in the maintenance of skills and equipment - let's face it; one garrison evening a week, two weekends a month (field or range), and a couple of weeks in the summer would not allow anyone to perform at their best on zero notice.

The other issue is, of course, cohesion. If a Reserve unit were to train up for and participate in an operational mission as a body (OK - so it's a dream world, but consider the argument, at least), they would probably perform at least on par with any equivalent body of regs. It's when individuals are tossed in to a section or platoon or HQ that we have issues that happen anywhere an outsider is suddenly introduced to an already existing team. In the cbt arms especially, this kind of disruption is magnified, and in the high-stress environment that is any operational mission (esp. something like Roto 0 in Afghanistan), the slightest friction can be magnified into something beyond belief.

Thankfully, most (unfortunately, not all) soldiers that I have worked with have possessed the common sense, maturity, and professionalism to work through the problems with little more than some good-natured ribbing.

There are and always will be differences between regs and Res... and between Joe A and Jim B (although I prefer the differences between Joe A and Jane B - but that's me   ). If you are able to work through them, then maybe you're a better person for it. If you refuse to even try then, IMHO, you're not worth my time.

 

[GO!!!]

Well,
    I dont really have the time to rebut all of the responses to my statements, and I sense some hostility out there. I will end my participation in this thread with these thoughts.

My statements regarding the Mo are from my experience. I stand behind them 100%.

I am not denying that there may be reservists with potential out there - only that in 6 years I have yet to see one I would want in my sect.

I'll probably be teaching in Wx this summer - if we are'nt deployed, and any reservists I train will be to a high standard.

Judging by the response in this forum, I eagerly await one of the mo's to impress me.

ex coelis

 

[aesop081]

Well,
     I dont really have the time to rebut all of the responses to my statements, and I sense some hostility out there. I will end my participation in this thread with these thoughts.

My statements regarding the Mo are from my experience. I stand behind them 100%.

I am not denying that there may be reservists with potential out there - only that in 6 years I have yet to see one I would want in my sect.

I'll probably be teaching in Wx this summer - if we are'nt deployed, and any reservists I train will be to a high standard.

Judging by the response in this forum, I eagerly await one of the mo's to impress me.

ex coelis

Only 6 years...maybe when you get some more time in you will change your views.

 

[dutchie]

Well,
     I dont really have the time to rebut all of the responses to my statements, and I sense some hostility out there. I will end my participation in this thread with these thoughts.

My statements regarding the Mo are from my experience. I stand behind them 100%.

I am not denying that there may be reservists with potential out there - only that in 6 years I have yet to see one I would want in my sect.

I'll probably be teaching in Wx this summer - if we are'nt deployed, and any reservists I train will be to a high standard.

Judging by the response in this forum, I eagerly await one of the mo's to impress me.

ex coelis

That was a well-thought out, reasonable, and mature post. I think you're wrong about the quality of reservists, but you put forth that opnion (in this last post) in an appropriate way. I can better understand now how you came to this position if you have never had a good experience with reservists, and I hope this is cleared up soon.

Make sure you give reservisst a fair shake, though, as you clearly have some bias against us right now.

You will undoubtedly receive little flak for that post.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"You:" In other words you are saying that;

"From me": I certainly suggest they might have performed differently"

"You:"in that they is referring to all the fellas on the ground, right?

No, I was writing specifically about reservists.   I didn't pull the assessment that 5 months in-theatre made a difference out of my own nether regions.   Notwithstanding the sensitivities of all concerned, it's important to be honest about readiness and what it takes to be ready, and what sort of reserve training and evaluation regimes might be indicated.

There is likely a point at which cohesion doesn't improve remarkably with increased time working together, but I hazard a guess it doesn't happen during workups or in the first few weeks after deployment, or, for that matter, commitment to a major theatre of war.

 

[Infanteer]

I've attached the last post so that  Mr Sallows can defend his earlier statement (prior to the devolving bunfight), if anyone wishes to respknd, use the PM or start a new thread on "cohesion".

Infanteer Out