Politics in 2016

[jollyjacktar]

To quote a famous group of PhD-qualified critical thinkers, "Emmanuel Kant, was a real piss-ant..."

"who could drink you under the table"  ;D

 

[Eaglelord17]

Well what about us who are actually taking courses for in demand jobs but can't get hired because of currently broken system?

Many of my friends and I have taken programs for in demand jobs. Things like Computers, Electrical, Trucking, and other Skilled Trades. We are unable to get a job because no one wants to hire apprentices, or wants you to have 5 years experience right off the back (which you can't get when no one will hire you in the field). We have not taken Liberal Arts degrees and expected something, we have taken needed courses and get nothing due to most the industrial jobs being exported under the watch of the previous generation and the refusal to train anyone new, instead relying on a older trained body (baby boomers), who are finally aging out.

Personally I have next to no respect for people that say my generation has it 'easy'. The previous generations got the benefit of being able to get decent paying jobs out of high school (sometimes not even needing high school), with benefits and a pension, and being able to afford a house early in life. Not to mention racking up billions of dollars in debt which they never intended to pay back, and have pushed it forwards on to the next generation (really thanks for that, nothing says selfish like giving your kids 500 billion in debt to deal with, well getting none of the benefits of it).

To top it off our cost of living is higher than the previous generations, which might have a fair bit to do with people being unable to leave home as early as other generations (coupled with a lack of decent paying jobs, you move out and struggle just to survive). Yes my generation has a lot of apathy, but that is because we realize we are pretty much screwed no matter what happens.

 

[Jed]

Who is talking about free post secondary?  I think the problem a lot of graduates run into is (based off friends and family) is they walk away with a degree in whatever, 20-50 k in debt and can't find a job in their field while needing to start paying back their sizeable debt.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-increase-financial-aid-for-students-ease-debt-repayment-rules/article29353822/?service=mobile

Nowhere in there do I see free tuition.

How about those who walk away leaving their parents, or themselves a 20k - 50k debt? People should suck it up and pay their own debts for their own poor choices.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for whiners of any generation who create their own problems and then foist it upon anyone else. Especially when it happens to be the big, bad, mean government (and eventually the taxpayers)  Too many people forget that there is no such hing as a 'free lunch'.

And, Ballz; this goes for your pound salt comment. It is not about the age or generation of any individual, it is about their personal character and / or lack thereof.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Well what about us who are actually taking courses for in demand jobs but can't get hired because of currently broken system?

Many of my friends and I have taken programs for in demand jobs. Things like Computers, Electrical, Trucking, and other Skilled Trades. We are unable to get a job because no one wants to hire apprentices, or wants you to have 5 years experience right off the back (which you can't get when no one will hire you in the field). We have not taken Liberal Arts degrees and expected something, we have taken needed courses and get nothing due to most the industrial jobs being exported under the watch of the previous generation and the refusal to train anyone new, instead relying on a older trained body (baby boomers), who are finally aging out.

Personally I have next to no respect for people that say my generation has it 'easy'. The previous generations got the benefit of being able to get decent paying jobs out of high school (sometimes not even needing high school), with benefits and a pension, and being able to afford a house early in life. Not to mention racking up billions of dollars in debt which they never intended to pay back, and have pushed it forwards on to the next generation (really thanks for that, nothing says selfish like giving your kids 500 billion in debt to deal with, well getting none of the benefits of it).

To top it off our cost of living is higher than the previous generations, which might have a fair bit to do with people being unable to leave home as early as other generations (coupled with a lack of decent paying jobs, you move out and struggle just to survive). Yes my generation has a lot of apathy, but that is because we realize we are pretty much screwed no matter what happens.

When I graduated from college almost 35 years ago, it was the same for me too.  There is as they say, "nothing new under the sun".  It's always challenging starting out and you will find your traction in time just as I and countless others did.

 

[mariomike]

The previous generations got the benefit of being able to get decent paying jobs out of high school (sometimes not even needing high school), with benefits and a pension, and being able to afford a house early in life.

I graduated Grade 12, took the subway downtown, wrote the civil service exam, did the medical / physical. Bought a new blue suit for the interview ( that was stressful - oral board they called it ) Hired on just as that same summer was ending.
I was 18 and still living at home.
It all seemed so simple. Live your life, do your work, as simple as all that.

 

[George Wallace]

Well what about us who are actually taking courses for in demand jobs but can't get hired because of currently broken system?

Many of my friends and I have taken programs for in demand jobs. Things like Computers, Electrical, Trucking, and other Skilled Trades. We are unable to get a job because no one wants to hire apprentices, or wants you to have 5 years experience right off the back (which you can't get when no one will hire you in the field). We have not taken Liberal Arts degrees and expected something, we have taken needed courses and get nothing due to most the industrial jobs being exported under the watch of the previous generation and the refusal to train anyone new, instead relying on a older trained body (baby boomers), who are finally aging out.

Personally I have next to no respect for people that say my generation has it 'easy'. The previous generations got the benefit of being able to get decent paying jobs out of high school (sometimes not even needing high school), with benefits and a pension, and being able to afford a house early in life. Not to mention racking up billions of dollars in debt which they never intended to pay back, and have pushed it forwards on to the next generation (really thanks for that, nothing says selfish like giving your kids 500 billion in debt to deal with, well getting none of the benefits of it).

To top it off our cost of living is higher than the previous generations, which might have a fair bit to do with people being unable to leave home as early as other generations (coupled with a lack of decent paying jobs, you move out and struggle just to survive). Yes my generation has a lot of apathy, but that is because we realize we are pretty much screwed no matter what happens.

Cry me a fucking river.... I worked my way through university.  I had to go looking for a job.  I landed up joining the CF. Your sense of entitlement and "whoa is me" is a sign of weakness on your part; and not the fault of my, or any other, generation.

 

[Altair]

True in that article. However, having taken part in annual student marches in Halifax while a student and the overwhelming consensus was that post-secondary should be fully funded and was a right. Ditto for when I was on my masters (though I didn't do the marches by then).

However, if they can't find jobs in their fields perhaps they need new fields, ie- the trades. Once again, no one forced anyone into any program.

There is a party that promises free post secondary. The green party.

Under 30s didn't really flock around that party for some reason.

So forgetting the overwhelming concensus of students who want free post secondary I think it's safe to say most students are more or less satisfied with a helping hand when it comes to their employment and debt rather than just handouts.

How about those who walk away leaving their parents, or themselves a 20k - 50k debt? People should suck it up and pay their own debts for their own poor choices.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for whiners of any generation who create their own problems and then foist it upon anyone else. Especially when it happens to be the big, bad, mean government (and eventually the taxpayers)  Too many people forget that there is no such hing as a 'free lunch'.

And, Ballz; this goes for your pound salt comment. It is not about the age or generation of any individual, it is about their personal character and / or lack thereof.

And they will pay. Nowhere does it say they won't.  They will just start paying it back when they can afford it and the low bar of 25000 annual income isn't exactly hard to meet even for someone at the low end of the employment ladder.

But if someone is living on 24999 or less with 20-50k of student debt unable to find a job in their field or starting at a really low salary to be expected to be paying back that debt is a legitimate concern and in this case, an election issue.

Do you need to give a rats ***? God no. Do political parties need to start giving a rats ***? Judging on this election, yes, probably. 54 percent of young Canadians voted this time around 45 percent of them for the liberals, 20 percent for the NDP, and the liberals had more under 30s vote for them in every single province except for alberta. That's a big voting bloc to be pissing off.

For example, I don't give a damn about older Canadians personally. I don't care about the things that effect older Canadians like retirement age or door to door delivery. But politically, I can see the sense in courting older Canadians. Same way you should see the sense in courting younger Canadians for the political gain of your political party.

 

[mariomike]

For example, I don't give a damn about older Canadians personally. I don't care about the things that effect older Canadians like retirement age or door to door delivery.

Get off my lawn! 

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Well what about us who are actually taking courses for in demand jobs but can't get hired because of currently broken system?

Many of my friends and I have taken programs for in demand jobs. Things like Computers, Electrical, Trucking, and other Skilled Trades. We are unable to get a job because no one wants to hire apprentices, or wants you to have 5 years experience right off the back (which you can't get when no one will hire you in the field). We have not taken Liberal Arts degrees and expected something, we have taken needed courses and get nothing due to most the industrial jobs being exported under the watch of the previous generation and the refusal to train anyone new, instead relying on a older trained body (baby boomers), who are finally aging out.

Personally I have next to no respect for people that say my generation has it 'easy'. The previous generations got the benefit of being able to get decent paying jobs out of high school (sometimes not even needing high school), with benefits and a pension, and being able to afford a house early in life. Not to mention racking up billions of dollars in debt which they never intended to pay back, and have pushed it forwards on to the next generation (really thanks for that, nothing says selfish like giving your kids 500 billion in debt to deal with, well getting none of the benefits of it).

To top it off our cost of living is higher than the previous generations, which might have a fair bit to do with people being unable to leave home as early as other generations (coupled with a lack of decent paying jobs, you move out and struggle just to survive). Yes my generation has a lot of apathy, but that is because we realize we are pretty much screwed no matter what happens.

The circular experience thing has been going on for awhile and it is certainly a dilemma. That said, you are right that many of those good paying jobs that you decry the older generations for getting were in manufacturing and other trades. With the reduction in the manufacturing centre and the creation of a services-centric economy, those jobs are largely gone.

As for home ownership, according to Stats Canada, home ownership amongst people 20-34 has actually INCREASED from 36% in 1971 to 46% in 2006.

So what's the solution? The current solution seems to be to go MORE into debt further screwing the next generation and pushing concepts such as fixed minimum income which only serves to further drive up costs and ensure that Canada remains uncompetitive. The trick is getting the good manufacturing jobs back, which can't be done unless Canadian industries can compete with other nations.

 

[Jed]

There is a party that promises free post secondary. The green party.

Under 30s didn't really flock around that party for some reason.

So forgetting the overwhelming concensus of students who want free post secondary I think it's safe to say most students are more or less satisfied with a helping hand when it comes to their employment and debt rather than just handouts.And they will pay. Nowhere does it say they won't.  They will just start paying it back when they can afford it and the low bar of 25000 annual income isn't exactly hard to meet even for someone at the low end of the employment ladder.

But if someone is living on 24999 or less with 20-50k of student debt unable to find a job in their field or starting at a really low salary to be expected to be paying back that debt is a legitimate concern and in this case, an election issue.

Do you need to give a rats ***? God no. Do political parties need to start giving a rats ***? Judging on this election, yes, probably. 54 percent of young Canadians voted this time around 45 percent of them for the liberals, 20 percent for the NDP, and the liberals had more under 30s vote for them in every single province except for alberta. That's a big voting bloc to be pissing off.

For example, I don't give a damn about older Canadians personally. I don't care about the things that effect older Canadians like retirement age or door to door delivery. But politically, I can see the sense in courting older Canadians. Same way you should see the sense in courting younger Canadians for the political gain of your political party.

So, are you a big fan of Soylent Green, Altair?  I guess that is where we differ. I am a big fan of younger Canadians, at least the ones that truly care about the other folks and that are not obsessed with their personal appearance and sunny ways.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

For example, I don't give a damn about older Canadians personally. I don't care about the things that effect older Canadians like retirement age or door to door delivery. But politically, I can see the sense in courting older Canadians.

Man, that is harsh and that attitude is exactly what concerns me.  The ME ME ME generation.

Some of those older people you don't give a damn about sacrificed more for Canada and Canadians than you, if you cared enough, could ever dream of. 

I am hoping you meant that in jest or something...

stay classy mate.

*Irony*

 

[George Wallace]

For example, I don't give a damn about older Canadians personally. I don't care about the things that effect older Canadians like retirement age or door to door delivery. But politically, I can see the sense in courting older Canadians. Same way you should see the sense in courting younger Canadians for the political gain of your political party.

I feel sorry for you then, that you can not plan past the tip of your nose.  You may think you are "invicible" now, but when you reach 50 or 60, if you have not planned well, then you are truly screwed.  That has already started with many who are now in their 40's and early 50's who did not plan for their retirements, hoping that the Government will take care of them.  Sorry.  Not going to happen.  And you don't give a damn about those over 50......That will come back to bite you in the ass....But what does an old guy like me know?

 

[Altair]

So, are you a big fan of Soylent Green, Altair?  I guess that is where we differ. I am a big fan of younger Canadians, at least the ones that truly care about the other folks and that are not obsessed with their personal appearance and sunny ways.

I said I don't care, not that I hate them.

Although if I put my mind to it,

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/please-dont-hate-me-im-a-senior/article24101585/?service=mobile

Canadian senior citizens are among the most affluent people in the world. Fewer than 5 per cent of seniors live below the poverty line – one-third the rate of children who do. Since 1999, the median net worth of seniors has jumped 70 per cent. We are better off financially than our parents, and we’re way, way better off than the struggling 30-year-olds who will never enjoy the job security, the pension plans, and the high house prices and stock returns with which we’ve been blessed. We’ve worked hard for what we have. But we also stepped on a 40-year-long escalator that went straight up.

So when budget time comes around, who gets the goodies? We do! This week’s federal budget has been called a seniors’ budget, and for good reason. We got twiddles to our RRIFs and expansions to our TFSAs. Our government cheques for OAS and GIS and CPP just keep rolling in, even if we don’t need the money. We can hire financial planners to manipulate our affairs in clever ways so that our tax bills will be much, much lower than everybody else’s. No matter how loaded we are, our health care and drugs are pretty well free. Now we can even get a tax break for our walk-in shower.

Multiply all of this by 20 or 30 years, and you get a wealth transfer from young to old that’s truly impressive. Thank you, younger generation!

Why don’t the kids revolt? It’s a mystery to me. Maybe they figure it’s worth it because their parents will benefit. Maybe they imagine that all this will be theirs too some day. (Good luck with that.) Or maybe they just don’t know the score. It’s pretty hard to get riled up over old people’s RRIFs if you don’t have a clue what they are.

Seniors, on the other hand, will fight tenaciously to keep what they’ve got (and to get more). We are frighteningly well organized, and we scare the hell out of politicians. We have lots of time to lobby, and we vote. Three-quarters of all 65-year-olds voted in the last federal election, but less than half of 30-year-olds did. No politician, however brave he or she may be, can afford to make us mad. Although some of us may look old and frail, we’re as vicious as honey badgers if we’re cornered.

Some high-minded people think the over-65s should start a “generativity revolution” in the name of fairness. If millions of seniors got together to demand changes in health spending, fewer tax breaks, and more means testing, the politicians would listen and our collective grandchildren would be better off. Alas, this won’t happen. People are quite happy to help out their own grandchildren, but I suspect they are not so eager to help out other people’s.

Napoleon once said that religion was all that keeps the poor from murdering the rich.

I don't think that applies today. Swap out religion with social media, poor with young people and rich with boomers

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The previous generations got the benefit of being able to get decent paying jobs out of high school (sometimes not even needing high school), with benefits and a pension, and being able to afford a house early in life. Not to mention racking up billions of dollars in debt which they never intended to pay back, and have pushed it forwards on to the next generation (really thanks for that, nothing says selfish like giving your kids 500 billion in debt to deal with, well getting none of the benefits of it).

So you are against the portion in yellow?  And speaking out against it.  Yes??  Did you vote Liberal and/or support that party?

Think about it for a minute, in terms of what is happening right now in Canada.

1.  It wasn't my generation, or my fathers, who 'racked up the debt'; it was the government of that time who did.

2.  Cost of living is higher, so are wages/salaries. 

3.  I worked for everything I had, and I created and took advantage of opportunities.  No one handed anything to me, or my father.  We made it happen for ourselves, and had some 'right time right place' luck.  I am not working in any of the 3 'dream jobs' I had in my mind while growing up.  I got over it, because I accepted I was not able to put the things in place to make any of them happen.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Altair]

For example, I don't give a damn about older Canadians personally. I don't care about the things that effect older Canadians like retirement age or door to door delivery. But politically, I can see the sense in courting older Canadians. Same way you should see the sense in courting younger Canadians for the political gain of your political party.
[/quote]

So you'll essentially pay lip service to their concerns just in order to get their votes?  "Classy"  You're right though I guess, that's exactly what the Liberals did.
Just like how the Liberals will "withdraw our fighter jets out of Iraq in weeks rather than months".  They used the same sneaky-sneaky trick with misleading young Canadians to vote for them when it came to all that tuition crap. "Well we didn't exactly say that, you just conveniently drew conclusions from our obtrusive language".

By all means I think the Liberals were genius when it came to luring young Canadians to vote for them, can't argue with their success. They nailed it.

 

[ballz]

Some of those older people you don't give a damn about sacrificed more for Canada and Canadians than you, if you cared enough, could ever dream of. 

I find it funny that when people speak of social spending on younger people, like post-secondary education programs, that the youth are being "entitled" and want to be spoiled, etc etc etc. But when the older generations want more stuff from the same pot, it is somehow not a sense of entitlement. They just *deserve* it more from their perspective, for all their hard work in racking up the federal debt I guess.

We seriously need a split from this thread to truly discuss this older vs younger generational crap. I'm happy to debate it all but its not a "politics 2016" issue (despite its obvious impacts on all of our lives).

 

[Altair]

So you'll essentially pay lip service to their concerns just in order to get their votes?  "Classy"  You're right though I guess, that's exactly what the Liberals did.
Just like how the Liberals will "withdraw our fighter jets out of Iraq in weeks rather than months".  They used the same sneaky-sneaky trick with misleading young Canadians to vote for them when it came to all that tuition crap. "Well we didn't exactly say that, you just conveniently drew conclusions from our obtrusive language".

By all means I think the Liberals were genius when it came to luring young Canadians to vote for them, can't argue with their success. They nailed it.

What, am I suppose to care heart and soul about every single line of the liberal platform?

They had stuff in there for old people, young people, native people people with disabilities,people with kids, people with low incomes, ect.

God forbid I don't personally love every single one of these policy decisions.

If the liberals promise stuff to old people so old people vote for them so that things they promise to young people come to fruition then so be it. Follow through. Just don't expect me to care/love it.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

What saddens me the most is learning that for Eye in the Sky, hunting submarines from the air was not even a top three "dream job". His top "dream jobs" must have been awesome !!!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I find it funny that when people speak of social spending on younger people, like post-secondary education programs, that the youth are being "entitled" and want to be spoiled, etc etc etc. But when the older generations want more stuff from the same pot, it is somehow not a sense of entitlement. They just *deserve* it more from their perspective, for all their hard work in racking up the federal debt I guess.

We seriously need a split from this thread to truly discuss this older vs younger generational crap. I'm happy to debate it all but its not a "politics 2016" issue (despite its obvious impacts on all of our lives).

Well, I guess the difference is, the 'older' generation has been paying into things like CPP, OAS, income taxes, pensions etc for generations.  The other group...not so much.

My old man, like many others, paid for the benefits he is drawing now.  The government of the day was the one who 'racked up the debt', he was busy doing other stuff on an Argus.  Like everyone else, he got to vote during the election and then pay for whatever they did after.

Fast forward XX years, I'm flying on an even older Aurora, voting during election day and then paying for whatever is done after. 

:2c:

 

[George Wallace]

I don't think that applies today. Swap out religion with social media, poor with young people and rich with boomers

Since when are all the YOUNG poor, and all the RICH  "Boomers"?

Take responsibility for your own actions.  Stop blaming others. 

(By the way, what has the governing Party been for the majority of years since the Korean War?

1935 - 1948 William Lyon Mackenzie King      (LIB)  13 years.
1948 - 1957 Louis St. Laurent  (LIB)                  9
1957 - 1963 John Diefenbaker  (PC)  6               
1963 - 1968 Lester B. Pearson  (LIB)                  5
1968 - 1979 Pierre E. Trudeau  (LIB)                  11
1979 - 1980 Joe Clark              (PC)    1
1980 - 1984 Pierre E. Trudeau  (LIB)                    4
1984 - 1984 John Turner          (LIB)
1984 - 1993 Brian Mulroney      (PC)    9
1993 - 1993 Kim Campbell        (PC)
1993 - 2003 Jean Chretien        (LIB)                  10   
2003 - 2006 Paul Martin            (LIB)                    3
2006 - 2015 Stephen Harper      (PC)    9
2015 -        Justin Trudeau      (LIB)                    1 

PC's were in power for 25 years.
Liberals were in for 43 years. (56 years if you want to include William Lyon Mackenzie King)

So the LIBERALS have been in power most of this time and yet you still blame it on the PC and the "BOOMERS".  Nice analyst job of our political past.)