Politics in 2016

[Eye In The Sky]

What saddens me the most is learning that for Eye in the Sky, hunting submarines from the air was not even a top three "dream job". His top "dream jobs" must have been awesome !!!

1.  SAR Tech (screwed my back on Basic Para in '92)  2.  Flight Engineer (but didn't think I'd like being an AVN for XX years and 3.  English professor (I rely on spellcheck  :blotto.

But, yup, there's nothing like driving in on a riser or a wall-banger on MAD.  Not so fun times include spilling your coffee, getting lit up by someone when you're close to their backyard and anything that involves someone saying "E-handle number X".  ;D

 

[George Wallace]

I find it funny that when people speak of social spending on younger people, like post-secondary education programs, that the youth are being "entitled" and want to be spoiled, etc etc etc. But when the older generations want more stuff from the same pot, it is somehow not a sense of entitlement. They just *deserve* it more from their perspective, for all their hard work in racking up the federal debt I guess.

We seriously need a split from this thread to truly discuss this older vs younger generational crap. I'm happy to debate it all but its not a "politics 2016" issue (despite its obvious impacts on all of our lives).

I don't see your point.  On one hand you are saying that we complain that the young who have yet to contribute much need "welfare programs" so that they can become educated, yada, yada, yada; and then you are upset that people who have worked all their lives to build this country, feel that their hard work should mean more than someone who has not done any work yet towards building the nation.  You do not see the "ENTITLEMENT" that some who have yet to contribute are demonstrating, yourself included? 

 

[ballz]

Well, I guess the difference is, the 'older' generation has been paying into things like CPP, OAS, income taxes etc for generations.

They had not been paying for those things nearly as much as they were collecting. See the 500+ billion dollars of debt I referenced earlier. It makes no sense to say "well they've been paying taxes their whole life" when in fact they were taking out much more than they were paying in.

My old man, like many others, paid for the benefits he is drawing now.

While we can't speak to each individual, that generation as a whole underpaid by a large margin over the course of their taxpaying years, so no one can claim they paid for the benefits they are collecting now. They didn't even pay for the benefits they collected back then.

The government of the day was the one who 'racked up the debt', he was busy doing other stuff on an Argus.  Like everyone else, he got to vote during the election and then pay for whatever they did after.

That generation of taxpayers voted for those governments and those policies, just the same as this current stoopid generation of taxpayers is doing the same thing. No high ground for either side on this one.


I can barely stand to hear the average person's perspective on government spending these days. But the folks before today's "average person" were no more fiscally prudent. I would say, considering we are now servicing the interest on their debt, we are being more fiscally prudent than they were, which is pretty scary.

I don't see your point.  On one hand you are saying that we complain that the young who have yet to contribute much need "welfare programs" so that they can become educated, yada, yada, yada; and then you are upset that people who have worked all their lives to build this country, feel that their hard work should mean more than someone who has not done any work yet towards building the nation.  You do not see the "ENTITLEMENT" that some who have yet to contribute are demonstrating, yourself included?

Other than contributing to the massive federal debt, what "nation building" have taxpayers over the last decades done exactly? You can't say you "built the nation" when you built it on a foundation of debt. That's not "hard work," that's the exact opposite.

Youth have a sense of entitlement for thinking that taxpayer's should pay for all their wants, absolutely.

The older generations have a sense of entitlement for thinking they are entitled to spend the government's money after paying taxes their whole life, when in fact they were collecting more than they were paying their entire taxpaying lives. Add a touch of arrogance for doing this and claiming they "built the nation."

Like I've said, no high ground for the older generations to stand on here.

 

[Altair]

Man, that is harsh and that attitude is exactly what concerns me.  The ME ME ME generation.

Some of those older people you don't give a damn about sacrificed more for Canada and Canadians than you, if you cared enough, could ever dream of. 

I am hoping you meant that in jest or something...

*Irony*

Some of them did. Most of them didn't. We have a day for the ones who did.

As for the me me me, well I'm deeply sorry about not caring deeply about every demographic in the country. I apologize.

Back to reality however, and you'll see me not caring about them as a neutral thing, not a love or hate thing. I'm indifferent,  and last I saw that's not a crime.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

They had not been paying for those things nearly as much as they were collecting. See the 500+ billion dollars of debt I referenced earlier. It makes no sense to say "well they've been paying taxes their whole life" when in fact they were taking out much more than they were paying in.

While we can't speak to each individual, that generation as a whole underpaid by a large margin over the course of their taxpaying years, so no one can claim they paid for the benefits they are collecting now. They didn't even pay for the benefits they collected back then.

That generation of taxpayers voted for those governments and those policies, just the same as this current stoopid generation of taxpayers is doing the same thing. No high ground for either side on this one.

George already laid out who was in power over what timeframes.  While all of those wizards were making policy and shaping the future, my old man was doing this and paying taxes:

Vice doing this, and spending taxes:

Stop pointing the finger at the taxpayers who were, as they are now, at the mercy of government policy and practices (the taxspenders).  The guys my father flew with had as much influence on what the government did and what they spent money on then as you do today.  Basically, SFA.

The taxpayers have had in the past, same as now, very little ability to direct anything in Ottawa.  They can only hope and pray that promises are kept.  How's the worked out over history?

 

[Altair]

George already laid out who was in power over what timeframes.  While all of those wizards were making policy and shaping the future, my old man was doing this and paying taxes:

Vice doing this, and spending taxes:

Stop pointing the finger at the taxpayers who were, as they are now, at the mercy of government policy and practices (the taxspenders).  The guys my father flew with had as much influence on what the government did and what they spent money on then as you do today.  Basically, SFA.

The taxpayers have had in the past, same as now, very little ability to direct anything in Ottawa.  They can only hope and pray that promises are kept.  How's the worked out over history?

Taxpayers have a say every 4 years. They are not innocent in all of this. Trudeau doesn't get elected if the the taxpaying public at the time doesn't vote him and his party into power.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Some of them did. Most of them didn't. We have a day for the ones who did.

As for the me me me, well I'm deeply sorry about not caring deeply about every demographic in the country. I apologize.

Back to reality however, and you'll see me not caring about them as a neutral thing, not a love or hate thing. I'm indifferent,  and last I saw that's not a crime.

Hey, here's something to consider.  If your generation represents a trend, and that is how you feel about the "retired generation Canadians", just think how well looked after and cared about you will be in your later life.  They'll likely sell you off as slaves or just put you on an ice flow.  Whatever, as long as you aren't wasting resources other younger people need/want, like air or water.

But, whatever, they'll just be equally as 'not caring about every demographic in the country' as you are, only indexed over time like inflation or the COL is!!

Now I don't feel so bad as I've remembered...What goes around, comes around.

 

 

[ballz]

Stop pointing the finger at the taxpayers who were, as they are now, at the mercy of government policy and practices (the taxspenders).  The guys my father flew with had as much influence on what the government did and what they spent money on then as you do today.  Basically, SFA.

The taxpayers have had in the past, same as now, very little ability to direct anything in Ottawa.  They can only hope and pray that promises are kept.  How's the worked out over history?

I suppose when you consider that 1/3rd of Canadian adults doesn't pay any income taxes, then you can say that taxpayer's don't have 100% of the influence. They do have 67% of the influence though. But, I guess, I may be too optimistic in thinking that our democracy is not just a farce that the overlords are using to distract us from reality. If that's the way you feel, then sure, but then you should be conceding that the youth have no influence on government spending and therefore are victims of our overlords just like everybody else. Taxpayer's are not victims of youth entitlement, but victims of our overloads, just like everybody else.

 

[Jed]

I suppose when you consider that 1/3rd of Canadian adults doesn't pay any income taxes, then you can say that taxpayer's don't have 100% of the influence. They do have 67% of the influence though. But, I guess, I may be too optimistic in thinking that our democracy is not just a farce that the overlords are using to distract us from reality. If that's the way you feel, then sure, but then you should be conceding that the youth have no influence on government spending and therefore are victims of our overlords just like everybody else. Taxpayer's are not victims of youth entitlement, but victims of our overloads, just like everybody else.

Thats true balls. It is just that the youth are too naive and inexperienced to know it so they get sucked in by whatever party spews the best line of BS.

 

[dapaterson]

And on Friday night, the Tories had a costume party. No Photoshop involved.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/paulmcleod/shit-got-weird-at-the-conservative-convention-friday-night?utm_term=.ongy761N9#.fvEGdg2e0

 

[dapaterson]

Whereas in Manitoba, that "Quack quack quack" you're hearing isn't a duck, but rather the head of the provincial NDP.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/interim-ndp-leader-has-been-handing-out-natural-medicine-from-her-legislature-office-381169571.html

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Taxpayers have a say every 4 years. They are not innocent in all of this. Trudeau doesn't get elected if the the taxpaying public at the time doesn't vote him and his party into power.

They do have a vote.  In the fall of 2015, they voted on a promise of "10 billion max, promise!".

How long did that max 10 billion last?

Hence, my point;  I took a variety of factors into consideration before posting it.  One of them is 'promises made' and 'promises kept'. 

Canadian politicians (of any party) will continue to act the way they do until the greater Canadian populace holds them to account.  Today, people are more concerned with other things like who wore what dress to the Oscars and  :blah: than real life issues.

"We will remove the CF-18s!"  yay!  go Liberals!!!!!!

"We are putting helicopters in on the ground with weapons on them!"  "Hey look, our PM is doing yoga!"

Whats the big deal that he acts more like a celebrity than a politician and our PM?

http://www.shape.com/celebrities/news/we-officially-have-fitness-crush-canadian-pm-justin-trudeau

Justin Trudeau has quickly become Canada's hottest Prime Minister. And it turns out that along with being blessed with exceptional looks, J.T. is also a famed feminist, advocate for refugees, and yogi.

Before his days as a renowned world leader, Justin Trudeau was a snowboarding instructor in the 1990s and even taught as a high school drama teacher for a hot second. Seriously, is there anything wrong this man?

Wow, even a high school drama teacher eh?  I am EQUALLY as impressed!!  :

THIS shows how and what the average ding-dong out there uses as their "support/don't support" criteria. 

They (most of his supporters) see him exactly the same and support him for equally meaningless reasons.  That's my  :2c:.  It's not that they are supporting him, it's why they are.  I just hope the 'crush' wears off before too long.  Maybe once people see the hand go into their wallet, they'll go 'hey!'.  Maybe not.

 

[Altair]

Hey, here's something to consider.  If your generation represents a trend, and that is how you feel about the "retired generation Canadians", just think how well looked after and cared about you will be in your later life.  They'll likely sell you off as slaves or just put you on an ice flow.  Whatever, as long as you aren't wasting resources other younger people need/want, like air or water.

But, whatever, they'll just be equally as 'not caring about every demographic in the country' as you are, only indexed over time like inflation or the COL is!!

Now I don't feel so bad as I've remembered...What goes around, comes around.

Pfft, like boomers care greatly about young Canadians. 

Looking at this thread alone, and we are all pot head, women study taking freeloaders.

The liberals offer young Canadians a modest student debt relief until they make 25000 or more and it's talk of how young people need to live with bad choices and they should suck it up.

Give me a break.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

And on Friday night, the Tories had a costume party. No Photoshop involved.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/paulmcleod/shit-got-weird-at-the-conservative-convention-friday-night?utm_term=.ongy761N9#.fvEGdg2e0

:facepalm:  Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh man.  :facepalm:

I'll just do 2 facepalms, but they represent about 100 actually facepalms each.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Pfft, like boomers care greatly about young Canadians. 

Looking at this thread alone, and we are all pot head, women study taking freeloaders.

The liberals offer young Canadians a modest student debt relief until they make 25000 or more and it's talk of how young people need to live with bad choices and they should suck it up.

Give me a break.

Offering student debt relief.  Who is paying for that actual debt relief?

We all are. 

FWIW, I care about the good of all Canadians, not just people like my retired parents, and that includes the younger generation, but you have to be willing to consider our experience, this isn't our first rodeo and we've seen party after party makes and break promises.

We "old(er) folks"  also have to listen to your hopes and wishes, but much like you probably did in CFLRS/Basic...the experienced ones are always going to want to teach their experience to the next ones up.  Natural way of things.

Honestly, I think the more unfortunate thing that has happened in recent years was the loss of Mr Layton, and I've never voted NDP in my life.  I lost touch with the PC message towards the end and almost didn't vote;  I saw no real choices I could stand behind.

Our future relies on your generation; we don't want to see you vote based on smiles, selfies and yoga poses.  On here, you are kinda the de facto "young liberal supporter" rep.  I see a 'but I am watching and will judge' component to your posts, I just hope you aren't still dazzled by "sunny ways" come the next election.

 

[Altair]

Offering student debt relief.  Who is paying for that actual debt relief?

We all are. 

FWIW, I care about the good of all Canadians, not just people like my retired parents, and that includes the younger generation, but you have to be willing to consider our experience, this isn't our first rodeo and we've seen party after party makes and break promises.

We "old(er) folks"  also have to listen to your hopes and wishes, but much like you probably did in CFLRS/Basic...the experienced ones are always going to want to teach their experience to the next ones up.  Natural way of things.

Honestly, I think the more unfortunate thing that has happened in recent years was the loss of Mr Layton, and I've never voted NDP in my life.  I lost touch with the PC message towards the end and almost didn't vote;  I saw no real choices I could stand behind.

Our future relies on your generation; we don't want to see you vote based on smiles, selfies and yoga poses.  On here, you are kinda the de facto "young liberal supporter" rep.  I see a 'but I am watching and will judge' component to your posts, I just hope you aren't still dazzled by "sunny ways" come the next election.

The money is paided back, i doubt many post secondary graduates will go on to not make 25k or more a year for the rest of their lives. Unless they have a tragic short life in which case the debt wouldnt be repaid anyways.

That depends entirely on who end up leaders of the three other parties, their platform and how the liberals do.But as I said before, and will say again, young Canadians had legitimate issues beyond pot and hair and they voted en mass for the party that tried to address them. The other two parties, IMHO wrote off young Canadians as a bloc that does not vote and thus didn't deserve their attention. We shall see if the other parties change their tune before 2019 but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I suppose when you consider that 1/3rd of Canadian adults doesn't pay any income taxes, then you can say that taxpayer's don't have 100% of the influence. They do have 67% of the influence though. But, I guess, I may be too optimistic in thinking that our democracy is not just a farce that the overlords are using to distract us from reality. If that's the way you feel, then sure, but then you should be conceding that the youth have no influence on government spending and therefore are victims of our overlords just like everybody else. Taxpayer's are not victims of youth entitlement, but victims of our overloads, just like everybody else.

Our political system, if a farce, is so more because our voting populace doesn't hold the government of the day to account for broken promises and fuck-ups.  They only get away with it because we enable them to.  That they take advantage of that "lack of accountability" is our fault as a whole as well IMO; for creating the conditions for it to happen in the first place, and for doing nothing to prevent it in the future.

Overall, I am less concerned with the Liberal party (or any party for that matter) than I am on what I see as a very fickle, superficial voting population in Canada who make decisions based on whatever they see on FB and Twitter.  A generalization, but you get the point I think.

ABC/The Voice of REAL CHANGE/Harper is BAD...BAD!!!

If you don't see the point I'm making with the video, watch it anyways.  This thread needs some humour and I still think that is some funny shit right there.  8)

 

[TCM621]

Pfft, like boomers care greatly about young Canadians. 

Looking at this thread alone, and we are all pot head, women study taking freeloaders.

The liberals offer young Canadians a modest student debt relief until they make 25000 or more and it's talk of how young people need to live with bad choices and they should suck it up.

Give me a break.

I paid my student loans,  so why shouldn't everyone else? And if the student spends 10s of thousands of dollars on useless courses, while becoming a student activists with no intention of working for the man? Should he/she get debt relief indefinitely? Yes, most people aren't like that but enough are. And their are Starbucks, and other minimum wage jobs, everywhere full of people with  liberal arts degrees. College is not, and not should it be, a given. There are plenty of good,  we'll paying jobs which don't require a degree. Granted you might have to work your ass off but the pay is good. As a society, we push people who have no need, no desire and no business there, into post secondary.

As a parent if you want to force your kid I to school,  then pay for it. The government has a wonderful program called a RESP. If you plan you can take most of the burden off your child. Students, if you really want to go to university you will find away. Work full time and go to school, lots of people do it. If university is too hard for you while your working, maybe explore other options.

BTW, the people who have the real problem aren't the boomers. They didn't need university. It's everyone else between the ages of 35 and 50.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The money is paided back, i doubt many post secondary graduates will go on to not make 25k or more a year for the rest of their lives. Unless they have a tragic short life in which case the debt wouldnt be repaid anyways.

I'll present to you something to consider about education;  federal government support (in the form if funding) to support marginalized adults who have sub-standard literacy skills and can't partake in adult education (formal, non-formal, or informal).

Flyn, Brown, Johnson, & Brown (2011) offer:
For those “invisible” members of our society who attempt to succeed in the face of adversity, education is not viewed in the same light as it would be by a privileged person. To the disadvantaged, education may be a luxury pursuit, an endeavor that may or may not lead to a means of supporting oneself and one’s family. Furthermore, the inequality still prevalent in Canadian society often acts to prevent the disadvantaged from excelling academically and thus obtaining a functional literacy level. (p. 55).

These disadvantaged people are Canadians.  Some are immigrants, some were born here, all are caught in a cycle of poverty, crime and 'the welfare cycle'.  Many of them (e.g. - single mothers) are not able to get a basic education for lack of things such as child care at the learning facility.  This would include the young people who are now entering the 'marginalized adults' group WRT adult education.  If they were able to break the cycle they are in, they would also become tax-paying citizens (less stress on the welfare and social systems), they would likely be very thankful to the government that dedicated the funding to their futures and apt to support them for an extended period of elections.  Of course there is the side benefit for these people as well;  the ability to live a decent life away from poverty and the welfare cycle. 

Are they not more of a priority than those who have an education but can't get a job (that they want, right out of school, right off the bat)? 
Or do 'Sunny Ways' stop short of reaching these Canadians? 

The students praying for debt relief have SFA to worry about and deal with compared to marginalized adult Canadians who don't have the basic literacy skills to sign their name, apply for a drivers licence of even get a job as a janitor because they can't read.  Until they are supported, there can be no conduit of change for them.  I'll save my concern for those Canadians, vice the folks who just got their degree and have to start working outside their field of study, sorry.  There are people with far greater needs;  real, basic life needs. 

Where is the Liberal Party voice for these people?  Or, are they too "not your concern", like the elderly? 


Flynn, S., Brown, J., Johnson, A., & Rodger, S. (2011). Barriers to education for the marginalized adult learner. Alberta Journal of Educational Research, 57(1), 43-58.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The rankings people give to a list of issues, and the issues and/or causes that move people to vote, are not necessarily tightly coupled.  I suspect in the case of young voters there is no particular correlation.

For several election cycles I have noticed in the US and Canada that young voters will cheerfully rank shopping lists of issues for pollsters, and still not necessarily turn out to vote.

In the recent past, young voters turned out in large numbers for Obama and Trudeau.  Going back, I'd guess (without checking numbers) that Trudeau senior enjoyed a bulge of support among young voters.

My conclusion is young voters tend to turn out in larger numbers when they feel like they can vote for the prom king (or queen).  Giving them a little more credit for not being irretrievably shallow, perhaps they turn out when there is a novelty issue which attracts them.  They may say they care about free post-secondary education (as has been the case for, oh, at least the past 40 years), but the prospect of pot legalization is what actually drags them off the couch to the polls.