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Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition

SeaKingTacco

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And when you want to know about protestants, where do you look? That is a much closer comparison than the Catholicism, one of the few religions with a official head of the religion.

Islam is made up of sects, and sects within sects, much closer to the gazillion denominations of Protestantism.

One can even look at western Islam as the reformation Islam has long needed, secular politically, and devout spiritually.

Canadian and western Muslims are the ideal we want to show towards the world. People, Muslims included want to get away from the unstable nations with no separation of church and state. Here we have it. There is no them and us, there are Canadians.

Christian Canadians.

Jewish Canadians.

Muslim Canadians.

First Nation Canadians.

All who can belong to any political party, be friends with anyone else, who live in harmony unless the FIFA world cup is going on or the all Canadian Division of the stanley cup playoffs are going on.

So this talk of them and us, and whatever else, that IS the problem. Guys like @Colin Parkinson ARE the problem.

How much further does it take for the wrong individual to go from "I don't like Islam" to I must kill Islam?
Altair, I know Colin’s backstory and bonifide’s rather better than you do, and I can say, without a doubt, that he has more personal experience with Islam than you or just about anyone else on Army.ca. I would, perhaps, listen carefully to what he has to say. Perhaps he has phrased things inelegantly for your tastes, but he has personally experienced political Islamism.

To be very, very clear, none of what I have just posted is in anyway a defence/endorsement of some dude who decided to run down 4 innocent people. This thread has taken a tangent that is detracting from that tragedy.
 

Altair

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And given time most will integrate.

However when they segregate themselves and refuse to at least obey the laws of the land they have emigrated to then its a problem.
Okay, and in large part, most Muslims in the west have integrated. So we need to realize the reality on the ground.
Altair, I know Colin’s backstory and bonifide’s rather better than you do, and I can say, without a doubt, that he has more personal experience with Islam than you or just about anyone else on Army.ca. I would, perhaps, listen carefully to what he has to say. Perhaps he has phrased things inelegantly for your tastes, but he has personally experienced political Islamism.

To be very, very clear, none of what I have just posted is in anyway a defence/endorsement of some dude who decided to run down 4 innocent people. This thread has taken a tangent that is detracting from that tragedy.
I don't accept that one can simply issue a blanket statement like "I don't like Islam" after 4 Muslims are targeted by a POS who targeted them because they were Muslim.

I don't accept it any more than someone who says I don't like Jews, I don't like Hindus, I don't like Buddhists.

Those 4 people are dead because someone didn't like Islam/Muslims.

If on 9-11 2001 I said I don't like Americans, these POS went too far, but I don't like Americans, you would be reaming me out, and rightly so.

If someone was talking about the holocausts and I said I don't like jews, Nazis took it too far, but I don't like jews, it wouldn't be any more right.

So I will say it now until I get a ban or whatever, saying I don't like Islam is wrong. Again, 4 people out for a walk are dead because someone didn't like Islam.

Be better.
 

Brad Sallows

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Where is this happening in the west? Where? Canada has a Muslim population of over 1 million people, where is this happening?

State executions? None. Murders and other abuses (rape, assault). Some. Are you able to grasp that it is reasonable to simultaneously:
  • be intolerant of Islam as a belief system
  • be intolerant of people who practice the parts of Islam I dislike
  • be indifferent to the people who ignore the parts of Islam I dislike
  • assess Islam as problematic, until such time it is reformed

For what it's worth, I feel the same about the Westboro Baptists and whatever they hold to be their canon. The fact that there are many quiet, peaceful, evangelists doesn't mean I can't be critical.
 

Altair

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State executions? None.
Exactly
Murders and other abuses (rape, assault). Some.
As with every other religion or non religion.
Are you able to grasp that it is reasonable to simultaneously:
  • be intolerant of Islam as a belief system
No, I cannot. No more than I can be intolerant of Judaism as a belief system.
  • be intolerant of people who practice the parts of Islam I dislike
This is fine.
  • be indifferent to the people who ignore the parts of Islam I dislike
Also fine.
  • assess Islam as problematic, until such time it is reformed
This is dumb, as Islam is wide reaching and practiced differently everywhere, as you could compare with evangelists.
For what it's worth, I feel the same about the Westboro Baptists and whatever they hold to be their canon. The fact that there are many quiet, peaceful, evangelists doesn't mean I can't be critical.
Yet you specifically said westboro baptists, and not I dislike evangelists. Why not give islam the same luxury?
 

Altair

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"saying I don't like Fascism is wrong".

I should be obvious that a system of belief is subject to criticism and dislike.
Fascism is political.

Islam is a religion.

There are some who make Islam political, but again, in the west, that is not the norm. Same as there are some who make Christianity political, and Judaism political, but those are not the norm, and you would not be going around saying I don't like Judaism or I don't like Christianity.

Everyone in Canada is allowed to practice whatever religion they choose, and so long as it remain spiritual and not political, you, me, anyone should butt the hell out and leave people to believe what they please.
 

Brad Sallows

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Why not give islam the same luxury?

Because they exist on two radically different scales. Westboro Baptists and like groups are a tiny minority.

Political ideas and religious ideas are just subsets of ideas. Ideas are not out of bounds to criticism. The fact that Islam is a religion doesn't prevent me from taking the secular view that it was deliberately constructed with political aims in mind.
 

Altair

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Because they exist on two radically different scales. Westboro Baptists and like groups are a tiny minority.
There are 1m Muslim Canadians, how many do you think are radicals, or followers of political islam?
 

Brad Sallows

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There are 1.9B Muslims worldwide; in some cases, entire countries are essentially Muslim and of those some are not particularly enlightened. I suppose Canadian Muslims must pretty much all practice something different - call it Reform Islam. My beef is with Islam, the kind the Saudis and Iranians officially practice.
 

Altair

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There are 1.9B Muslims worldwide; in some cases, entire countries are essentially Muslim and of those some are not particularly enlightened. I suppose Canadian Muslims must pretty much all practice something different - call it Reform Islam. My beef is with Islam, the kind the Saudis and Iranians officially practice.
Then maybe, just maybe, you can allow yourself to think of them as separate entities and say as much.

I don't like Islam I don't like Political Islam, Radical Islam

There is nothing wrong with Islam as it is practiced in the west. Lets not lump it in with what Saudi Arabia and Iran have bastardized it into.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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So I will say it now until I get a ban or whatever, saying I don't like Islam is wrong. Again, 4 people out for a walk are dead because someone didn't like Islam.
Wrong......I'll bet he didn't know any Muslims. He's probably never opened the Quran. He just needed to hate someone/something for his sad-sack life, and unfortunately, these poor souls were an easy target for that hatred.

People like you push an agenda that right wing people must hate, so guess what, he did hate. Blame this tragedy on those like yourself who push this " right-wing must equal hate" agenda to make you feel like a virtuous woke person.
 

Altair

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Wrong......I'll bet he didn't know any Muslims. He's probably never opened the Quran. He just needed to hate someone/something for his sad-sack life, and unfortunately, these poor souls were an easy target for that hatred.

“Nate is not a radical terrorist. He is nothing like that. He is not an Islamophobe. That’s not who this kid is,” said one friend.

The friend, who hails from the Middle East, said he never heard Veltman say a bad thing about the Middle East or Muslims. “Nate was a very close friend and never said anything bad to me,” the man said.
What did you bet, I'm interested about my winnings.
People like you push an agenda that right wing people must hate, so guess what, he did hate. Blame this tragedy on those like yourself who push this " right-wing must equal hate" agenda to make you feel like a virtuous woke person.
Yes, I made him drive into a Muslim family out for a walk.
John Candy Reaction GIF
 

Loachman

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There are 1m Muslim Canadians, how many do you think are radicals, or followers of political islam?
Islam is a combined religion and political system. There is no separation between the two.

Individual Muslims, like others, may or may not adhere to the whole package. We are/have been fortunate here, so far at least.

But, just in Kingston, there have been two cases of note. In one, three teenage girls and a former wife were murdered by their father/former husband and at least one brother for family "honour". I lived in the motel (on IR) wherein they were killed for three years, albeit some time afterwards, and learned quite a few details that were not published directly from the manager.

There was a Muslim youth arrested and charged with terrorism here a few years ago. No details have been released. As this case has only seen sporadic mention in the media of late, I cannot remember if he has gone to court, been convicted, or been sentenced. The case was considered serious enough to hold him without bail.

I have also watched a lot of footage of recent pro-Hamas rallies in Toronto and elsewhere lately, and Quds Day marches in Toronto over the last couple of years. There are those who support violence, even if only in word so far.

I have a few Muslim neighbours. The two Syrian families who lived on both sides of me moved out into larger houses, much to my regret. I have never had better neighbours, and I have mentioned them several times in the past.

I've also had interesting conversations with Iraqi Christians who were forced to leave and come here. When once they got along quite well with their Muslim neighbours, the situation deteriorated over time to the point where they were concerned for their lives. They had little charitable to say about their former neighbours.

I can separate Muslims and Islam in my mind quite easily. Islam represents a potential threat here, eventually, and a very real and current one elsewhere. This threat should not be underestimated. The onset of problems seems to occur at about the ten-percent-of-population point. We have yet to reach that. Immigration has also been much slower here than in Europe, Britain, and Scandinavia, which were suddenly overrun en masse. A large proportion of the "refugees"/"migrants" who flooded into Europe, Britain, and Scandinavia were military-age young men rather than family groups as we have received here and they have very much ben a problem. Both time and the nature of the Muslims that have come here have enabled better integration, and I hope that that persists.

I can still view Islam as a potential threat, or not like much of its teachings, and welcome Muslims.

I can also respect Mohammed as a great and accomplished warlord. Whether he was God's ultimate prophet, to whom God directly dictated the Qu'ran, or a cunning opportunist who grafted a political philosophy onto the two pre-existing Abrahamic religions purely to unite Arabs and lead/inspire them to conquer the middle east and much of southern Europe, I cannot say. I can neither prove nor disprove either theory, and have no interest in attempting either one.

Christianity was once spread largely largely by the sword, but more latterly by persuasion. Islam is still spread by the sword in many places.

But all of that aside, I despise every form of unjustifiable and immoral violence to anybody, for any excuse.

And the victims of this vile attack were good people, and much better people than their attacker.

We all lost.
 

Loachman

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And that previous attack, did we start thinking it was road rage?

Personal vendetta?

I don't think we did, it was obviously a targeted attack on soldiers.

And it was called terrorism.

So a Muslim man uses vehicle to target and kill a soldier, terror attack. No problems.
WO Patrice Vincent was a member of 1 Wing.

I was at work when he was deliberately struck and killed, and his companion, also a CF member, injured in a strip mall parking lot.

We followed the story closely as it developed, through a police chase to the point when the attacker - a recent convert to Islam, "known to police", and very much radicalized - lost control of and rolled his weapon, got out, and lunged at a policewoman with a knife and was shot dead. He'd actually called 911 during the chase and clearly stated that he had carried out the attack for Allah.

There was little doubt that this was a terrorist attack.
 

Loachman

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Turns out the suspect was wearing body armor. Terrorism? Maybe not. Hate crime? Probably. Premeditated? Definitely.

Man suspected of killing Canadian Muslim family was motivated by hate
Maybe. That has not been confirmed, at least not by this morning. He was apparently an airsofter, which could well account for items that "looked like" body armour and military helmet but would lack any protective capability.

But I agree with your assessment. I don't see any political aspect, so no terrorism, and I don't think that he just drove at the first random family that he saw crossing the road, and it was not an accident.
 

Loachman

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The left is fine.

You're talking about the far left.

Both sides of the spectrum has extremists and extremist views.( though I have yet to see a radical centralist)

And you won't see me dressing up either extreme. I will say that the far right has had a much higher body count, and thus are the more deadly of the two extremes but you won't see me apologizing for either.
If we consider the global body count, the far left is w - a - y out in front. Communism has killed many millions in many places.

In the US alone, Muslim terrorists won the trophy on 11 September 2001. I got back home from dropping my boys off at school to see smoke trailing from the first tower struck but didn't think too much of it until I saw the first replay of the first airliner sink into it, followed by the fireball - and then over and over until the second struck. And then everything else through that whole day.

So are Muslim terrorists far-left, or far-right? Religion is not associated with the far-left...

Far-left violence is relatively easy to identify, especially when they identify themselves as Marxists, but what makes a violent/hate-filled person "far-right"?

I seriously believe that that term is an invention of the far-left to smear conservatives. It is consistent with their historical tactics.

I don't mind dropping the left/right labels too much. Extremism is extremism, whatever motivates it, and all forms of extremism need to be neutralized.
 

Good2Golf

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Yes it is. And most of the bloody bits are pretty much entirely ignored by contemporary Christians and Jews, throughout the world.
Pretty much but not entirely...same as the Qur’an and most contemporary Muslims.

Is there a definitive source for what percentage of each contemporary religion around the world is extremized?
 

SeaKingTacco

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Pretty much but not entirely...same as the Qur’an and most contemporary Muslims.

Is there a definitive source for what percentage of each contemporary religion around the world is extremized?
Depends on who decides what is “extreme”, doesn’t it?

I am sure that a significant portion of Canadian First Nations people view the entirety of Catholicism as “extreme”…
 

CBH99

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If we consider the global body count, the far left is w - a - y out in front. Communism has killed many millions in many places.

In the US alone, Muslim terrorists won the trophy on 11 September 2001. I got back home from dropping my boys off at school to see smoke trailing from the first tower struck but didn't think too much of it until I saw the first replay of the first airliner sink into it, followed by the fireball - and then over and over until the second struck. And then everything else through that whole day.

So are Muslim terrorists far-left, or far-right? Religion is not associated with the far-left...

Far-left violence is relatively easy to identify, especially when they identify themselves as Marxists, but what makes a violent/hate-filled person "far-right"?

I seriously believe that that term is an invention of the far-left to smear conservatives. It is consistent with their historical tactics.

I don't mind dropping the left/right labels too much. Extremism is extremism, whatever motivates it, and all forms of extremism need to be neutralized.
I just wrote a lengthy, rambling post - only to find you posted a much more elegantly worded version.

Extremism on either side is bad. I think we can all agree... "Extremism. Is. Bad."



We should also remember that a majority of people throughout the world, regardless of their religion, all want the same thing. They want to live somewhere safe and peaceful, to work at something they find meaningful, for their kids to be safe and be able to obtain an education/future options, and to love and be loved by their family and friends.

Extremists on either side of the spectrum are separate from the majority. Extreme anything is bad, not just religion.
 

Altair

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If we consider the global body count, the far left is w - a - y out in front. Communism has killed many millions in many places.
I don't disagree, but we are talking local.
In the US alone, Muslim terrorists won the trophy on 11 September 2001. I got back home from dropping my boys off at school to see smoke trailing from the first tower struck but didn't think too much of it until I saw the first replay of the first airliner sink into it, followed by the fireball - and then over and over until the second struck. And then everything else through that whole day.
Yet since September 12th, one is more likely to die to far right terror, followed by radical Islam.
So are Muslim terrorists far-left, or far-right? Religion is not associated with the far-left...
Religion doesn't fall on the political spectrum. So call it what it is, religious based terror, not political based terror.
Far-left violence is relatively easy to identify, especially when they identify themselves as Marxists, but what makes a violent/hate-filled person "far-right"?
extreme nationalist, xenophobic, racist, fundamentalist.

That's the straight and narrow of it. A conservative may be of the opinion that immigration control and secure borders are a good thing(those on the left being more open to more immigration)

A far right individual would be of the opinion that new immigrants are invading their country, raping the women, are a nuisance that needs to be eliminated.

in other words, closer to the right wing of the political spectrum, but a extreme and dangerous version of it.

In this example of London ON, someone may have the opinion that political Islam is problematic, and that we need to ensure that everyone is integrating into Canadian society and not bringing the troubles of the middle east here.

A far right individual would be of the impression that Muslims are invading Canada, putting in sharia law, he'll bent on oppression and subjugation of the Canadian population, and as such, must be eliminated.

I seriously believe that that term is an invention of the far-left to smear conservatives. It is consistent with their historical tactics.
I have not, and I don't think anyone here is equating a run of the mill conservative with a far right individual who is of the opinion that one must kill all the Muslims to save Canada from sharia law.
I don't mind dropping the left/right labels too much. Extremism is extremism, whatever motivates it, and all forms of extremism need to be neutralized.
We must also be cognizant of where it is coming from.

If it's the radicalized left,it's the radicalizedleft, if it's the radicalized right, it's the radicalized right, if it's radical Islam, it's radical Islam.

But we need to call a spade a spade. It does nobody any damn good to sugar coat it.
 
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