Self Defence in Canada (split from Gun Control 2.0)

[OldSolduer]

As one of the many podcasts I listen to regularly these laws have been written by "Karens" who never fail to fall for a sob story...and think all legal gun owners are evil and need to be controlled.
The "Karens" totally believe criminals and their shitty lies.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The fact that we are arguing over storage regulations proves my point.

Who's arguing? I'm simply explaining the laws.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thanks, I wasn't sure how that worked.

Vault-tec is a fake company from the Fallout video game series (and now TV show), that was doing all kinds of social experiments on people living in their underground vaults following a large scale nuclear event across the globe. Timeline wise it's set in the 50s/60s, so has a great 50s diner style asthetic in all the design.

You may have seen the Vault boy; he's been meme'd around since the days of dial up internet, and has been around since 1997.

Vault-tec in the game was a bit of generic Acme co that did everything, but had a huge defence contract for the government and got up to all kinds of evil corporate shenanigans, because they could.

They've done a great job with the tv show, with Season 2 coming out soon, so it's worth checking out if you like post-apocalypse type shows.

View attachment 95404

got it.

Cheers

 

[Haggis]

I think that's just for non-restricted firearms in remote wilderness settings.

RCMP storage rules


No mention about trigger locks or the like.

You are confusing storage with transporting. Two different requirements (from the link you posted):

Storage:

Non-restricted firearms​

• Attach a secure locking device, such as a trigger lock or cable lock (or remove the bolt) so the firearms cannot be fired; or
• Lock the firearms in a cabinet, container or room that is difficult to break into.

Transporting:

Non-restricted firearms​

Non-restricted firearms must be unloaded during transportation.

Leaving any class of firearm in an unattended vehicle​

Lockable container for storing firearm

• Lock non-restricted firearms and locked containers carrying restricted or prohibited firearms in the trunk or in a similar lockable compartment.
• If the vehicle does not have a trunk or lockable compartment, put firearms and firearm containers out of sight inside the vehicle and lock the vehicle.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

One thing the laws are somewhat silent on is when the gun is "In use". So if you are at home and cleaning your guns in the basement and your home is searched at that moment by police. The natural inclination of police/Crown is to charge you with "Not following the storage requirements" However the guns are neither being stored or transported and a gun owner with a decent lawyer have been able to have those charges dropped. In fact I have read that improper storage charges are dropped about 75% of the time, as proving the firearms are not properly stored is hard in many cases.

 

[Haggis]

One thing the laws are somewhat silent on is when the gun is "In use". So if you are at home and cleaning your guns in the basement and your home is searched at that moment by police. The natural inclination of police/Crown is to charge you with "Not following the storage requirements" However the guns are neither being stored or transported and a gun owner with a decent lawyer have been able to have those charges dropped.

That is a very good question and a hard one to answer.

Our byzantine firearms laws are tough for most LEOs to figure out on the side of the road. Most firearms enthusiasts are better versed in them than LEOs but they are not the ones laying the charges. To be "safe" some lazier LEOs will simply lay the charge and let the courts sort it out.

Where I work, I'm more knowledgeable than most and we generally deal with safe transportation and classification issues. We also have the luxury(?) of having almost instant access to those same byzantine laws and regulations as well as our own policies and directives. I had a discussion just last week about whether a quite expensive rifle being transported with a snap cap installed to protect the firing pin is considered "loaded". The answer is no (CCC 84(1)), but I have heard of another agency laying a charge of transporting a loaded firearm which was found with a dummy round in the chamber. I do not know the outcome of that one.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I keep a copy of the RCMP cheat sheet in my firearm document folder I take with me, so I can educate a cop/conservation officer who is unaware. It's quite telling that every cop I took out shooting on a range and started explaining the laws to them, said : "That so fu#king stupid?, or "That does not make sense". Also that the law applies to them when they want to buy ammo or using a non-duty firearm.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Pretty hilarous the company name is Vaultek though.

Have any of the storage requirements for handguns changed significantly within the last 20 years or so, particularly with them getting more restricted generally and banned in some municipalities?

Still really not sure where I sit on any of this; I have no problem with legal gun ownership, and requiring people to have some kind of minimal safety training but also think there are some people who aren't responsible enough to own any of them, and that having a bit of a tortured path to get access to them and the ammo isn't a bad thing as it gives someone a bit of a cooling off period if they are angry, and things like home invasions are pretty rare where it doesn't make a difference from a self defence perspective.

Safe storage laws aren’t about ‘cooling off periods’ or any such nonsense. The argument made for them is based mainly off unintended usage (say a child getting access).

That is a very good question and a hard one to answer.

Our byzantine firearms laws are tough for most LEOs to figure out on the side of the road. Most firearms enthusiasts are better versed in them than LEOs but they are not the ones laying the charges. To be "safe" some lazier LEOs will simply lay the charge and let the courts sort it out.

Where I work, I'm more knowledgeable than most and we generally deal with safe transportation and classification issues. We also have the luxury(?) of having almost instant access to those same byzantine laws and regulations as well as our own policies and directives. I had a discussion just last week about whether a quite expensive rifle being transported with a snap cap installed to protect the firing pin is considered "loaded". The answer is no (CCC 84(1)), but I have heard of another agency laying a charge of transporting a loaded firearm which was found with a dummy round in the chamber. I do not know the outcome of that one.

Remember ignorance of the law isn’t a defence as a civilian but it is the go to defence of the police.

 

[Haggis]

I keep a copy of the RCMP cheat sheet in my firearm document folder I take with me, so I can educate a cop/conservation officer who is unaware. It's quite telling that every cop I took out shooting on a range and started explaining the laws to them, said : "That so fu#king stupid?, or "That does not make sense". Also that the law applies to them when they want to buy ammo or using a non-duty firearm.

Same. I keep a copy of the Storage and Transportation regs in my range bag. I teach safety courses at my gun club and have experienced the same thing with LEOs from a bunch of different agencies. A few have gone on to be club RSOs and instructors.

Back on topic, I received a fundraising email from the CPC today which talked about the Lindsay self-defence event. It so pissed me off with the rage baiting, completely ignoring the fact that the resident is accused of excessive force, that I emailed my local MP, who is a PAL holder, and told him to sort out their info machine or I'd vote Liberal next time.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Same. I keep a copy of the Storage and Transportation regs in my range bag. I teach safety courses at my gun club and have experienced the same thing with LEOs from a bunch of different agencies. A few have gone on to be club RSOs and instructors.

Back on topic, I received a fundraising email from the CPC today which talked about the Lindsay self-defence event. It so pissed me off with the rage baiting, completely ignoring the fact that the resident is accused of excessive force, that I emailed my local MP, who is a PAL holder, and told him to sort out their info machine or I'd vote Liberal next time.

Believe me the Liberals, NDP and Greens are all about rage baiting as well. You should have said PPC, that would get their goat.

 

[KevinB]

I have heard of another agency laying a charge of transporting a loaded firearm which was found with a dummy round in the chamber. I do not know the outcome of that one.

That is fricken ludicrous.
Dummy rounds are a nothing legally.

I mean if they are left in plain view in a magazine(s) I could potentially see a mischief charge (the idea that it was done to create a disturbance). But a dummy round chambered isn’t externally visible, and doesn’t serve any functional purpose as the firearm cannot be discharged with it.


Jesus wept.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

That is fricken ludicrous.
Dummy rounds are a nothing legally.

I mean if they are left in plain view in a magazine(s) I could potentially see a mischief charge (the idea that it was done to create a disturbance). But a dummy round chambered isn’t externally visible, and doesn’t serve any functional purpose as the firearm cannot be discharged with it.


Jesus wept.

Except that weapon was obviously not cleared before transport, which is illegal

 

[Haggis]

Believe me the Liberals, NDP and Greens are all about rage baiting as well. You should have said PPC, that would get their goat.

You'd have a better chance of seeing a unicorn in your yard in my riding than a PPC candidate at your door. Three elections now, never saw one, never received any correspondence from one.

 

[Haggis]

That is fricken ludicrous.
Dummy rounds are a nothing legally.

I mean if they are left in plain view in a magazine(s) I could potentially see a mischief charge (the idea that it was done to create a disturbance). But a dummy round chambered isn’t externally visible, and doesn’t serve any functional purpose as the firearm cannot be discharged with it.


Jesus wept.

Like I said, not my agency and I don't know the outcome. In defence of the unknown copper, we had some older 9mm dummy rounds at our College which could be easily mistaken for live frangible. No idea where they came from but we got rid of them damn quick!

Hopefully the Crown had the common sense to look up 84(1) and withdraw the charge once the evidence was examined by someone competent.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Except that weapon was obviously not cleared before transport, which is illegal

The law is only that the firearm is unloaded, not cleared.

You could argue having a dummy round is unloaded as it is not ammunition and it cannot be fired.

 

[dapaterson]

The law is only that the firearm is unloaded, not cleared.

You could argue having a dummy round is unloaded as it is not ammunition and it cannot be fired.

The cost of going to trial and arguing is significant. If you did it for under $50k you'd be lucky.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The law is only that the firearm is unloaded, not cleared.

You could argue having a dummy round is unloaded as it is not ammunition and it cannot be fired.

Still, not proved safe. Anyhoo