TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)

[PuckChaser]

Thread title updated as a replacement has been chosen.

 

[MilEME09]

Thread title updated as a replacement has been chosen.

83 years ago we were hunting german subs, now we are buying them. We are full circle, question remains can they deliver. Id also have concerns about access to spare parts. Germanys own sub fleet was dry docked for a long time because they couldn't get parts. Our own leopard fleet in suffering similarly from German manufacturers. Thats gotta factor into the talks I hope

 

[FJAG]

83 years ago we were hunting german subs, now we are buying them. We are full circle, question remains can they deliver. Id also have concerns about access to spare parts. Germanys own sub fleet was dry docked for a long time because they couldn't get parts. Our own leopard fleet in suffering similarly from German manufacturers. Thats gotta factor into the talks I hope

I expect that this is why 50% of the evaluation weight went for the long-term maintenance, repair and operational support plans over the decades-long lifespan. One can speculate all one wants and even look to other contracts, but at the end of the day we're all just spit balling here about a project that won't crystalize for many months yet and for which all the manufacturing bits and pieces aren't contractually in place yet.

One thing is clear; so far the maintenance issue ts being considered a whole lot more than when the UK unloaded four used Upholder-class on us after the Pakistani's didn't want. Old saying from when I bought my old Triumph Spitfire: "Buy British - Buy second-best."

 

[Nvlgzr]

83 years ago we were hunting german subs, now we are buying them. We are full circle, question remains can they deliver. Id also have concerns about access to spare parts. Germanys own sub fleet was dry docked for a long time because they couldn't get parts. Our own leopard fleet in suffering similarly from German manufacturers. Thats gotta factor into the talks I hope

This was a German navy issue. Italy didn’t have this issue. Note the comment in attached article; German spokesman said,“ cost-saving measures adopted since then have resulted in parts no longer being kept in reserve, “.

All of Germany's submarines are currently down

Service officials hope to make an assessment next week about the extent of the damage.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Eaglelord17]

I expect that this is why 50% of the evaluation weight went for the long-term maintenance, repair and operational support plans over the decades-long lifespan. One can speculate all one wants and even look to other contracts, but at the end of the day we're all just spit balling here about a project that won't crystalize for many months yet and for which all the manufacturing bits and pieces aren't contractually in place yet.

One thing is clear; so far the maintenance issue ts being considered a whole lot more than when the UK unloaded four used Upholder-class on us after the Pakistani's didn't want. Old saying from when I bought my old Triumph Spitfire: "Buy British - Buy second-best."

To be fair to the Victoria/Upholder class much of that was our own fault. If we had just ran the subs as designed instead of trying to ‘Canadianize’ it we would have gotten much more out of them.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Do we know that as a fact, Eaglelord?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Do we know that as a fact, Eaglelord?

He is half right and half wrong.

Canadianizing the boats to fit the torpedoes we already had from the old o-boats instead of just buying some British tiger fish torpedoes certainly cost a lot and created lengthy refits not otherwise required.

But the real screw up was that we didn't get them from the Brits right when they decided to go all nuclear and offered them to us right off the bat. By dilly-dallying for years, causing them to be mothballed for almost a decade before we finally accepted to buy them caused more trouble than anything else.

Store your car in a garage somewhere long term and see if you can start it after four or five years without a lot of repairs.

 

[Eaglelord17]

He is half right and half wrong.

Canadianizing the boats to fit the torpedoes we already had from the old o-boats instead of just buying some British tiger fish torpedoes certainly cost a lot and created lengthy refits not otherwise required.

But the real screw up was that we didn't get them from the Brits right when they decided to go all nuclear and offered them to us right off the bat. By dilly-dallying for years, causing them to be mothballed for almost a decade before we finally accepted to buy them caused more trouble than anything else.

Store your car in a garage somewhere long term and see if you can start it after four or five years without a lot of repairs.

Both of which I see as Canadian problems not inherently caused by the system/class or British.

Don’t forget the part where the Brits didn’t longterm store them either because they were lead on to believe it would be a quick sale instead of the drawn out himing and hawing it was. Making it even worse for waiting the 5 years.

 

[Czech_pivo]

He is half right and half wrong.

Canadianizing the boats to fit the torpedoes we already had from the old o-boats instead of just buying some British tiger fish torpedoes certainly cost a lot and created lengthy refits not otherwise required.

But the real screw up was that we didn't get them from the Brits right when they decided to go all nuclear and offered them to us right off the bat. By dilly-dallying for years, causing them to be mothballed for almost a decade before we finally accepted to buy them caused more trouble than anything else.

Store your car in a garage somewhere long term and see if you can start it after four or five years without a lot of repairs.

And if the mice made it their new penthouse suite, you’re toast.

 

[GK .Dundas]

And if the mice made it their new penthouse suite, you’re toast.

Or park it outside near a stand of trees and every squirrel for 20 klicks will use it to store pinecones.
I've actually seen that.

 

[OldSolduer]

Or park it outside near a stand of trees and every squirrel for 20 klicks will use it to store pinecones.
I've actually seen that.

My 2010 Ram was that storage bin. And it wasn’t mothballed.
So that’s how I got the name “Squirrel Trappin Jim”

 

[PuckChaser]

83 years ago we were hunting german subs, now we are buying them. We are full circle, question remains can they deliver. Id also have concerns about access to spare parts. Germanys own sub fleet was dry docked for a long time because they couldn't get parts. Our own leopard fleet in suffering similarly from German manufacturers. Thats gotta factor into the talks I hope

We don't pick things based on logistics. Elbows up is more important than not having oceans between your suppliers. That being said, there's no North American option so we're stuck with either the Pacific or Atlantic to cross for any parts.

 

[Nvlgzr]

He is half right and half wrong.

Canadianizing the boats to fit the torpedoes we already had from the old o-boats instead of just buying some British tiger fish torpedoes certainly cost a lot and created lengthy refits not otherwise required.

But the real screw up was that we didn't get them from the Brits right when they decided to go all nuclear and offered them to us right off the bat. By dilly-dallying for years, causing them to be mothballed for almost a decade before we finally accepted to buy them caused more trouble than anything else.

Store your car in a garage somewhere long term and see if you can start it after four or five years without a lot of repairs.

And Upholder/Chicoutimi was built at a different yard than the rest of the boats. Now we’ve hit the trifecta.

 

[Kilted]

83 years ago we were hunting german subs, now we are buying them. We are full circle, question remains can they deliver. Id also have concerns about access to spare parts. Germanys own sub fleet was dry docked for a long time because they couldn't get parts. Our own leopard fleet in suffering similarly from German manufacturers. Thats gotta factor into the talks I hope

These won't be the first German submarines commissioned into the RCN.

German submarine U-190 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nvlgzr]

And Upholder/Chicoutimi was built at a different yard than the rest of the boats. Now we’ve hit the trifecta.

I’m guessing that since UK killed production earlier than planned, that very few spares were produced and the companies making the parts probably went t**s up.

 

[NavyShooter]

And then Canada went cheap on the spare parts - and said we didn't want to buy the ones that the Brits offered us....so they sold them on the open market. Which then sold them back to Canada at a considerable mark-up in cost when it turned out we actually needed them.

 

[OldSolduer]

And then Canada went cheap on the spare parts - and said we didn't want to buy the ones that the Brits offered us....so they sold them on the open market. Which then sold them back to Canada at a considerable mark-up in cost when it turned out we actually needed them.

Some folks are very short sighted - but maintaining things isn’t sexy so….

I’d love to see a CAF recruiting video targeted to youth who could serve on subs. A kind of action packed thing or maybe a few variations of what subs do

 

[daftandbarmy]

And then Canada went cheap on the spare parts - and said we didn't want to buy the ones that the Brits offered us....so they sold them on the open market. Which then sold them back to Canada at a considerable mark-up in cost when it turned out we actually needed them.

Wait... are we talking about the Chinooks now?