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TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)

Doesn’t have the tonnage or the power for true under ice operations.

"True under ice operations" .... Indeed if one is talking many weeks under ice with adequate reserve remaining for many weeks more under the ice.

The RCN laid out their requirements in the "High Level Mandatory Requirements" (HLMR) where I posted what I believe to be some of those HLMR directly related to Arctic operations for the Canadian Patrol Submarine.

Several others posters have already pointed out that the main role of the CPS is choke points, the USN and UK SSN’s can do the under ice thing for weeks at a time as needed) the conventional boats aren’t.

Indeed they have posted that as a role.

Having typed that, I prefer not to stay only chatting about current technology absolutes, if absolutes not guaranteed essential.

I have (likely an isolated view) that if the RCN has an Arctic mobile base ship, with AIP reactant replenishment capability, pre-positioned in the Arctic, that would be a game changer for AIP submarine Arctic operation, and it could change this entire limitation.

There has been mention by at least one senior RCN officer, as to the desirability of an Arctic mobile base ship. It has me curious if the CPSP moving forward with TKMS identified as the 'preferred supplier', if that might have the RCN also re-considering applicability of AIP submarine support provided by any hypothetical Arctic mobile base ship.
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Canada has a large capability to deal with Cryogenic products. The Medical field, Manufacturing, Mining, Oil and Gas industries all deal with same and or similar products on a daily bases. Shipping in quantity's by rail, aircraft, boat or truck is already figured out. Transferring from each of these modes of transport is also already figured out.
Setting up a ship to sub transfer set up SHOULD not take trying to reinvent the wheel. It is already in place and can be set up on Canadian military ships.
I actually think the AOPS and or the New Destroyers with their Mission bays could easily be set up to transport the product and pumps to perform the job.
I am not sure I want to be on a Military ship carrying large quantity's of LOX and Hydrogen.
I doubt AOPS will be carrying any explosives like that. They can't even carry propane.
 
Doesn’t have the tonnage or the power for true under ice operations.
The Nuke boats that have been posted multiple times on this thread surfacing through the ice are bigger and badder in that respect.

Several others posters have already pointed out that the main role of the CPS is choke points, the USN and UK SSN’s can do the under ice thing for weeks at a time as needed) the conventional boats aren’t.

Further to this, there is a recent comment a bit far down ( @ 5 August 2026, 5:05 am ) on the CNR New Submarines for Canada post, that summarizes pretty much my take on this. This is all conceptually fairly new - and dependent on the capability to replenish AIP reactants in the Artic , could have a major impact on the potential scope of AIP equipped submarine potential operation in Arctic waters.
 
I doubt AOPS will be carrying any explosives like that. They can't even carry propane.

Agreed. I am thinking more to have containers (which I believe commercially exist) embarked on a larger suitable ship (larger than an AOPS) so to generate the reactants and replenish from such. Very hypothetical - and given safety aspects plus Arctic cold complexities, it may not be viable. But given the scope of the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project, and given the game-changer aspect if such is viable, i believe it should be thoroughly investigated to assess if feasible.
 
"True under ice operations" .... Indeed if one is talking many weeks under ice with adequate reserve remaining for many weeks more under the ice.

The RCN laid out their requirements in the "High Level Mandatory Requirements" (HLMR) where I posted what I believe to be some of those HLMR directly related to Arctic operations for the Canadian Patrol Submarine.



Indeed they have posted that as a role.

Having typed that, I prefer not to stay only chatting about current technology absolutes, if absolutes not guaranteed essential.

I have (likely an isolated view) that if the RCN has an Arctic mobile base ship, with AIP reactant replenishment capability, pre-positioned in the Arctic, that would be a game changer for AIP submarine Arctic operation, and it could change this entire limitation.

There has been mention by at least one senior RCN officer, as to the desirability of an Arctic mobile base ship. It has me curious if the CPSP moving forward with TKMS identified as the 'preferred supplier', if that might have the RCN also re-considering applicability of AIP submarine support provided by any hypothetical Arctic mobile base ship.
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Selecting TKMS as the preferred supplier means Canada has entered negotiations for up to 12 Type 212CD submarines. It does not mean every speculative support concept associated with Arctic operations has suddenly become part of the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project. The government’s announcement says nothing about an Arctic mobile base, submarine tender or at sea AIP reactant replenishment capability.

The Arctic mobile base idea was floated by then Commander RCN Vice Admiral Angus Topshee as a broader ice capable amphibious and logistics ship. It was not announced as a funded project, much less as a submarine support vessel. Topshee is also no longer Commander RCN. Vice Admiral Dan Charlebois assumed command on June 16, 2026. Everything I have heard indicates that the mobile base concept has not progressed into the formal planning stage whatsoever.

Even supposing such a ship were eventually built, AIP replenishment would not be a simple matter of adding another hose reel. As you already know, it would require specialized storage, transfer equipment, safety systems, trained personnel and submarine compatible support facilities for hydrogen and oxygen reactants. A genuine submarine tender would also need repair shops, spares, weapons handling, medical facilities, communications and some form of submarine rescue support. Fuel cell AIP provides extended submerged endurance, but the reactants remain finite and the system does not turn a conventional submarine into an SSN as you might exspect.

The mobile base would also remain a surface ship limited by its own ice classification and by where it could safely operate. The submarine would still have to leave the deeper under ice operating area to meet it. That does not eliminate the fundamental issues surrounding speed, battery and energy management, emergency surfacing and rescue beneath heavy ice.

The more likely solution is considerably less exotic. The submarine leaves the patrol area and returns to an established support facility, or perhaps uses a closer forward logistics port such as St. John’s when suitable arrangements are in place. That is far more realistic than Canada designing and purchasing an enormously expensive Arctic submarine tender solely to replenish AIP consumables.
 
Selecting TKMS as the preferred supplier means Canada has entered negotiations for up to 12 Type 212CD submarines. It does not mean every speculative support concept associated with Arctic operations has suddenly become part of the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project. The government’s announcement says nothing about an Arctic mobile base, submarine tender or at sea AIP reactant replenishment capability.

The Arctic mobile base idea was floated by then Commander RCN Vice Admiral Angus Topshee as a broader ice capable amphibious and logistics ship. It was not announced as a funded project, much less as a submarine support vessel. Topshee is also no longer Commander RCN. Vice Admiral Dan Charlebois assumed command on June 16, 2026. Everything I have heard indicates that the mobile base concept has not progressed into the formal planning stage whatsoever.

Even supposing such a ship were eventually built, AIP replenishment would not be a simple matter of adding another hose reel. As you already know, it would require specialized storage, transfer equipment, safety systems, trained personnel and submarine compatible support facilities for hydrogen and oxygen reactants. A genuine submarine tender would also need repair shops, spares, weapons handling, medical facilities, communications and some form of submarine rescue support. Fuel cell AIP provides extended submerged endurance, but the reactants remain finite and the system does not turn a conventional submarine into an SSN as you might exspect.

The mobile base would also remain a surface ship limited by its own ice classification and by where it could safely operate. The submarine would still have to leave the deeper under ice operating area to meet it. That does not eliminate the fundamental issues surrounding speed, battery and energy management, emergency surfacing and rescue beneath heavy ice.

All good points.

There is though, the other side of the assessment.

The RCN attempted to set up a fixed Arctic base at Nanisivik that did not work out so well . It was that which prompted the staff (?) of then Commander RCN Vice Admiral Angus Topshee to propose an Arctic capable mobile base be considered. From my recollection it was independent of ANY consideration in regards to submarines. So this was a proposed idea, and it is not to the best of my knowledge a project/program. Whether consideration of submarine support might give it added emphasis is not something I have any insight into official defence thinking.

It is clear in my view, that AIP equipped submarines, if they wish to dwell at in the Arctic and still have AIP reserves for contingencies , can not do so with the submarine's on-board embarked AIP reactants. They don't have enough.

Simply put, AIP equipped submarines can not, without replenishment venture far into the Arctic. Having a distant base such as St.John's, in my view, does not cut it.

If AIP equipped submarines could replenish their reactants while in the Arctic, it would be a game changer. Dare I say a massive game changer.

But as you note, this is not easy from a Mobile base. Frankly, IMHO it is very difficult. Yes. There are major safety concerns re: AIP reactant generation, AIP reactant transportation & stowage, and even AIP replenishment. Do such in the Arctic adds an even further layer of complexity and difficulty.

So that does beg the question. Is it worthwhile to investigate further?

I think that question should be asked, assessed, and debated, much like we are doing now.

Some press articles claim, that over the Canadian Patrol Submarine project lifetime, the Canadian public could in effect be spending $80-billion to $100 billion Canadian dollars. The justification in part is Canada has a massive coastline with 3 oceans. 3 Oceans. Not 2. THREE. ...

Yet ... yet at the same time, after 'selling' the government on such, we go and then say, .. but ... but ... but ... we won't send the submarine into one of those 3 oceans, despite spending all of that money. We will only monitor Canadian east/west coast Arctic access from Canada/Alaska vicinity (and ignore any Russian access from the other side of the pole which is, frankly, viable). We will ONLY go for 2 ocean operations for the subs, despite using the 3 ocean argument to justify the expenditure.

Well - $80 billion to $100 billion is a lot of money, to then turn around and, only now, claim: "the 3rd ocean is not allowed for our new submarines. It was only a selling point". ???

Again, my view? I think that question should be asked, assessed, and debated, much like we are doing now.

I think the RCN is letting down the Canadian government and the Canadian tax payer, if the RCN does not take a hard look as to what would be involved to go beyond only monitoring the choke point entrances on the Canadian side of the Arctic.

My view is the RCN is letting down the Canadian government and the Canadian tax payer if the RCN does not consider an Arctic base, such as a mobile Arctic base ship (or even a new design of an Arctic (polar class) capable supply ship that can replenish submarine's reactants in the Arctic).

My view? Study the risks of the stowage requirements. Study the risks of the in-situ (on site) reactant generation, and study the difficulty/feasibility/risk of Arctic AIP replenishment. If possible, even dream up some smaller scale tests to assess viability.

To reject out of hand because it is clearly seen as difficult? Again, my (probably isolated) view, is if we right now, reject such, we are letting down the Canadian taxpayer in terms of them not getting full money for their expenditure for the submarines, and we are not adequately doing the appropriate job to assess what is viable, and what is not viable, without first looking into such in depth.

So - for the 3rd time, I think it is important that the viability of Arctic AIP replenishment question is asked, assessed, and debated, much like we are doing now.
 
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