TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)

[Gordon Dundas/]

I 100% agree with your words. I hope Germany does not screw us over.

The government is afraid quite frankly . The choice of the South Korean SSK would have led to many hard decisions in both the foreign and defence.
The Government is used to dealing with Europe it's feels like it is in it's comfort zone. We've spent most of this country's history it seems trying to avoid the Pacific. Aside from some tentative steps.
So I think we took the easy way out I just hope that doesn't bite us in the ass in a few years.
Is it just me by the way or does it now seem that we're virtually ignoring the South Koreans?
That also bothers me on several levels.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The government is afraid quite frankly . The choice of the South Korean SSK would have led to many hard decisions in both the foreign and defence.
The Government is used to dealing with Europe it's feels like it is in it's comfort zone. We've spent most of this country's history it seems trying to avoid the Pacific. Aside from some tentative steps.
So I think we took the easy way out I just hope that doesn't bite us in the ass in a few years.
Is it just me by the way or does it now seem that we're virtually ignoring the South Koreans?
That also bothers me on several levels.

Their new tanks and SP guns are pretty cool...

 

[oldcpu]

On a (somewhat distant but) related note to this topic of Arctic operation of submarines, I note in a recent CNR Broadsides: the following:

Xue Long (Snow Dragon) and Xue Long (Snow Dragon) 2 sailed north through the US exclusive economic zone in the Bering Sea in July. .... China says the ships are in the region is strictly for peaceful scientific research, environmental monitoring and global climate change studies. There is suspicion, however, that the ships are deploying advanced sonar and telemetry buoys which can track environmental changes and undersea topography, but also submarine activity.

where that article references a CBC Article: Canada, U.S. shadow Chinese research ships in the Arctic as concern grows over Snow Dragons' presence

Both Canada and the U.S. have been quietly shadowing two Chinese icebreaking research ships in Arctic waters off Alaska over the last couple of weeks.

The Xue Long (Snow Dragon) and Xue Long (Snow Dragon) 2 sailed north through the U.S. exclusive economic zone in the Bering Sea in July, according to the U.S. Coast Guard.
...
Buoys can track submarine activity

When asked about the Chinese ships on Thursday, Defence Minister David McGuinty said the Canadian military actively monitors the country's waters.
...
Both research ships, however, have been known to deploy advanced sonar and telemetry buoys. Western defence officials say these devices not only track environmental changes and undersea topography, but are also useful in tracking submarine activity.
...
The federal government has begun investing heavily in the construction of new destroyers and begun the process of acquiring Arctic-capable submarines. It also plans to deploy an undersea network of sensors.

...
However if one reads the CBC article that is claimed to be about "Arctic-capable submarines", it only refers to the submarines being located at "western approaches to Canada's Arctic coast and archipelago".

So that is a bit of a stretch (unless there is more known not stated) to state "Arctic capable submarines". Just because a submarine has an AIP system, in itself, does not make a submarine 'arctic-capable' in my view.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Their new tanks and SP guns are pretty cool...

And I hope that before we buy new tanks/SP guns/MCAV we actually go out in the field and test them rather than relying on the manufacturers propaganda. Or because someone in Ottawa wrote the RFIs to favour a specific manufacturer.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

When has there not been political reasons behind any procurement decision?

Of course, but are those decisions for the RIGHT political reasons is what we are discussing?

I've got a different view of where our political, military, economic, industrial priorities should be.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I've got a different view of where our political, military, economic, industrial priorities should be.

As do I, my friend. But neither of us has decided to stand for Parliament.

 

[childs56]

And I hope that before we buy new tanks/SP guns/MCAV we actually go out in the field and test them rather than relying on the manufacturers propaganda. Or because someone in Ottawa wrote the RFIs to favour a specific manufacturer.

As long as the thing starts and works decently. We are going to Canadianize it anyways. Most of Koreas are carefully pieced together best of European/ US equipment anyways, lets add our air conditioner/ heater to it and carry on.

To me the benefit of buying SK is that they are willing to set up actual production here, where Germany is not.
SK is looking at long term defense contracts across the board as an entire industry. Germany is looking at one contract at a time for a specific piece of kit.

Honestly if it is good enough for Our European Allies it should be good enough for us.

 

[KevinB]

The Koreans are no joke. They are still at war with the North, and they take equipment very seriously.

 

[oldcpu]

On the topic on whether the 'common design' of the Type-212CD might be tuned to be more Arctic capable for all three nations (Norway, German, and Canada) I am coming to the view that such may be unlikely. It may need to be Canada only if such implemented. Why?

Since the 2009 NATO summit in Strasbourg-Kehl, Canadian defence policy has remained unchanged under successive governments, with Canada indicating in 2009 that it preferred a firm boundary regarding NATO alliance operations in North America. Prime Minister Stephen Harper (I believe according to wiki leaks) privately warned NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen in January 2010 that the alliance had no role in the Arctic, arguing that Canada's good working relationship with Russia could be undermined by greater NATO involvement and warning that attempts to expand the alliance's role could backfire by exacerbating tensions with Moscow. Against this backdrop, Ottawa has likely emphasized Canadian sovereignty over the Arctic and the Northwest Passage, while favouring a North American defence framework based primarily on Canadian responsibility and bilateral air-defence only cooperation with the United States through NORAD, rather than a NATO command role in the region.

I speculate that if still in place, such a strategic posture could be seen as having some impact on allied procurement dynamics, particularly for joint programs like the Type 212CD submarine. Because Germany and Norway operate within the European High North—where operations center on open waters, deep channels, and marginal ice zones near Svalbard and the Barents Sea—their navies do not natively require severe under-ice hardware. Knowing that Canada has historically rejected NATO-flagged support patrols inside the Canadian Arctic Archipelago, I suspect that both Berlin and Oslo have little strategic nor financial incentive to co-fund any "Arctic-hardening" implementations for their own baseline Type-212CD submarine fleets. I speculate that from their perspective, specialized modifications—such as upward-looking ice-profiling sonar, reinforced sail structures, ice-deflecting periscope masts, and hardened propellers—are non-standard requirements that are not part of the stated operational requirements for the "Common Design" for their navies that expect to operate independently of Canadian internal waters.

I am also thinking thou - one possible caveat: the geopolitical environment has fundamentally shifted since year 2009, following Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent NATO accessions of Finland and Sweden. With the European Arctic more solidified now as a unified NATO flank (with Finland and Sweden), given that Russia may be increasing militarization of its northern bases, makes me ask myself if Canada's policy of keeping NATO at arm's length in the High North may benefit from renewed scrutiny - where such might lead to a stronger willingness for Type-212CD submarine Arctic hardening.