Updated Army Service Dress project

[Eaglelord17]

People who can't read the army ranks also tend to be the ones who don't know the navy ones... so, its a fault in the member, not the rank badges.

Yes going from a universally acclaimed by our allies system for it’s simplicity which was uniquely Canadian to a more complex difficult to read system which is based off a order system we don’t even have in Canada (order of Bath) makes lots of sense.

Considering the Navy doesn’t even use the proper legal Naval ranks (OS, AB, LS, and MS), how are they supposed to get mad if someone doesn’t know their alternative made up illegal system.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Yes going from a universally acclaimed by our allies system for it’s simplicity which was uniquely Canadian to a more complex difficult to read system which is based off a order system we don’t even have in Canada (order of Bath) makes lots of sense.

Considering the Navy doesn’t even use the proper legal Naval ranks (OS, AB, LS, and MS), how are they supposed to get mad if someone doesn’t know their alternative made up illegal system.

I think you've made your position quite clear.

 

[Furniture]

Yes going from a universally acclaimed by our allies system for it’s simplicity which was uniquely Canadian to a more complex difficult to read system which is based off a order system we don’t even have in Canada (order of Bath) makes lots of sense.

There is nothing "uniquely Canadian" about the unification ranks for officers. They were pretty standard "anglosphere" navy officers ranks.

I worked with a lot of other countries, none ever commented on ranks being easy or hard to understand.

Considering the Navy doesn’t even use the proper legal Naval ranks (OS, AB, LS, and MS), how are they supposed to get mad if someone doesn’t know their alternative made up illegal system.

Except I wasn't just refering to NCM ranks, and even then, the ones above MS are unchanged since unification. People still can't be bothered to learn them, so it's down to the member, not the badges or names.

I'll also let you in on a little secret. The army was using "illegal" ranks for decades, and nobody cared. Why is it that the RCN doing the same thing is such a travesty? Is ot because they went away from traditional names?

 

[Maxman1]

a more complex difficult to read system which is based off a order system we don’t even have in Canada (order of Bath)

We used pips and crowns for over a century. It's more Canadian than the system Paul Helleyer made up.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The unified officer ranks were the best in NATO in my opinion, very easy to read and understand. Pips and crowns aren’t nearly as effective.

The French one, with the exact same ranks identifiers for officers and non-comms across the Army, Navy, Air Force and Gendarmerie is also pretty straight forward.

We used pips and crowns for over a century. It's more Canadian than the system Paul Helleyer made up.

And how many of us (other than the few "dinosaurs" around here ) have ever known the CAF with the pips and crowns?

P.S.: Funny fact here: Most police forces in Canada always liked to emulate the military, so had similar Pips and Crowns for their ranks at the time of unification, and continued with the system ever since. One exception: Quebec. Most police forces, including the three largest ones (SQ, Montel and Quebec City) changed to adopt the CAF stripes system and are still using it to this day.

 

[Eaglelord17]

We used pips and crowns for over a century. It's more Canadian than the system Paul Helleyer made up.

It’s British, not Canadian. As evidenced by the fact the pip is based off the Order of Bath, a British order Canadians have been unable to be part of since 1952. That sounds super Canadian to me. Also keep in mind most the time we used those ranks Canadians were considered British subjects and lacked autonomy.

Alternatively you have the unification system, made by Canadians for Canadians. That is much more Canadian than just going with the system adopted from our former rulers.

Except I wasn't just refering to NCM ranks, and even then, the ones above MS are unchanged since unification. People still can't be bothered to learn them, so it's down to the member, not the badges or names.

I'll also let you in on a little secret. The army was using "illegal" ranks for decades, and nobody cared. Why is it that the RCN doing the same thing is such a travesty? Is ot because they went away from traditional names?

I am not a fan of the Army doing so either. That being said there is a difference between people using traditional titles and carrying on their usage (such as Killick or OD) than making up new ranks out of thin air and demanding everyone else use them and not use their legal ranks.

 

[PuckChaser]

I'll also let you in on a little secret. The army was using "illegal" ranks for decades, and nobody cared. Why is it that the RCN doing the same thing is such a travesty? Is ot because they went away from traditional names?

Which ones? Trooper? Bombardier? Colour Sergeant? Those are all legally defined in QR&O Volume 1 Art 3.01 since at least 2006. Sailor 3rd Class is not.

 

[markppcli]

There is nothing "uniquely Canadian" about the unification ranks for officers. They were pretty standard "anglosphere" navy officers ranks.

I worked with a lot of other countries, none ever commented on ranks being easy or hard to understand.


Except I wasn't just refering to NCM ranks, and even then, the ones above MS are unchanged since unification. People still can't be bothered to learn them, so it's down to the member, not the badges or names.

I'll also let you in on a little secret. The army was using "illegal" ranks for decades, and nobody cared. Why is it that the RCN doing the same thing is such a travesty? Is ot because they went away from traditional names?

What was uniquely Canadian was using them in a unified system. It made a joint working units very very simple. Still does for NCOs. When we have members who won’t learn to the ranks of the navy, it’s at least nice for them to be able to understand the equivalence at a glance.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Right now, mark, it's only the Army officers who stand out with their pips and crowns. The Air Force changed the colour, but it is still the same system as the unification one (other than the grotesque General's uniforms), as is the RCN system other than having the exec. curl.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Right now, mark, it's only the Army officers who stand out with their pips and crowns. The Air Force changed the colour, but it is still the same system as the unification one (other than the grotesque General's uniforms), as is the RCN system other than having the exec. curl.

Just try to explain what a RSM is to anyone else, especially Yanks

 

[Maxman1]

It’s British, not Canadian. As evidenced by the fact the pip is based off the Order of Bath, a British order Canadians have been unable to be part of since 1952. That sounds super Canadian to me. Also keep in mind most the time we used those ranks Canadians were considered British subjects and lacked autonomy.

So? Australia and New Zealand use the same ranks and they don't have any issues.

Pips and crowns aren't going anywhere any time soon. If it offends you that bad, you can always move to America or some other country that doesn't use them.

Alternatively you have the unification system, made by Canadians for Canadians. That is much more Canadian than just going with the system adopted from our former rulers.

Unification was a failure dreamt up by a legitimately schizophrenic man.

 

[Maxman1]

Right now, mark, it's only the Army officers who stand out with their pips and crowns. The Air Force changed the colour, but it is still the same system as the unification one (other than the grotesque General's uniforms), as is the RCN system other than having the exec. curl.

The RCAF ranks went back to pre-unification as well.

The general ranks are still awful all around, and the weirdest part is that they went to pre-unification, then were changed back to unification maple leaf explosion in 2016 for no rhyme or reason.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No. The RCAF didn't go back to pre-unification. Their current stripes use the same width as the post unification braid contrary to the very thin pre-unification ones, even though in two grey-blue colours a bit (but not exactly) as pre-unification. And they kept their ranks post-unification, which is why you don't have to learn the Pilot officer- Flying officer - Flight Lieutenant - Squadron Leader - Wing Commander - Group Captain - Air Commodore - Air Vice-Marshall - Air Marshall - Air Chief Marshall progression.

 

[Eaglelord17]

So? Australia and New Zealand use the same ranks and they don't have any issues.

Pips and crowns aren't going anywhere any time soon. If it offends you that bad, you can always move to America or some other country that doesn't use them.

We could use any rank system we want and still function, it doesn’t mean it makes sense or should be done. We had a simple effective system and changed it to a colonial system based off honours we don’t even use for nostalgia reasons. By the same logic we should readopt the Red Ensign as our national flag.

Your right they likely aren’t going anywhere anytime soon, but that doesn’t excuse the stupidity involved. At the bare minimum they should have Canadianized the pips and used some honour in the Canadian system as the basis (or maple leafs or something).

The move somewhere else argument though is a weak deflection tactic, used to attack the person not their arguments. It’s interesting that pushing for a Canadian system results in being told to leave Canada. Alternatively maybe you should go to Britain where at least they have the orders the system is based upon in service. Either way, I have made my point, not going to argue this further.

 

[OldSolduer]

The general ranks are still awful all around, and the weirdest part is that they went to pre-unification, then were changed back to unification maple leaf explosion in 2016 for no rhyme or reason.

Because "Canadian"

Seriously you guys - worry about things like operational effectiveness vice silly hats, pips, crowns, ranks etc etc.

 

[Maxman1]

We could use any rank system we want and still function

And pips and crowns function just fine. But by all means keep yelling at that cloud.

 

[CountDC]

Yes going from a universally acclaimed by our allies system for it’s simplicity which was uniquely Canadian to a more complex difficult to read system which is based off a order system we don’t even have in Canada (order of Bath) makes lots of sense.

Considering the Navy doesn’t even use the proper legal Naval ranks (OS, AB, LS, and MS), how are they supposed to get mad if someone doesn’t know their alternative made up illegal system.

Although I agree that changes made in the last few years was unnecessary and made to please a few, still don't get the S1-S3 system , I am curious what law you refer to when stating legal ranks?

Best to me was having crowns for Maj and WO. Told easy to tell, one is large the other small. How do I tell if it is a large or small without the other to compare it to?? It just is.

All of this was a waste of time and money to serve no real purpose other than a few people feel good.