Author Topic: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]  (Read 622176 times)

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #125 on: December 13, 2011, 20:39:35 »
Reminds me of this time last week in KAF with no DWAN and the computers gone for everyone who was left ... can you say FMP & carbon paper?? Only us folks old enough to be carbon-dated even knew what carbon paper was ... too funny.

 >:D

FMP and the carbon paper (which doubled as field expedient cam) is far better than e-mailing. You don't read half teh e-mails that are sent cause everyone is sending them for everything, like birthday announcements and cr@p like that.

FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #126 on: December 13, 2011, 20:39:57 »
The problem is this policy was implemented to cater to the weak minded individuals who couldn't even hack 4 weeks without phones. It is pathetic and it sounds like someone is trying to increase graduation numbers to pad a PER...not that things like that ever happen.  ::)

So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us? They're not worth keeping because some only want to focus on this mysterious group of "weak-minded individuals" that apparently we never would have identified otherwise? We've had enough threads here discussing how our recruit base isn't all fresh-faced 18-year olds fresh out of high school with a fresh apron-string-ectomy scar; some have ongoing personal lives that they have done their best to put on hold while in training, but a little more flexibility in supporting their need to have occasional contact may ensure we keep those worth having.

It's time we stop acting like there is no possible benefit here by narrowing our view to only those we would wish to deny the capability.


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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #127 on: December 13, 2011, 20:42:09 »
FMP and the carbon paper (which doubled as field expedient cam) is far better than e-mailing. You don't read half teh e-mails that are sent cause everyone is sending them for everything, like birthday announcements and cr@p like that.

FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.

I agree, but I wonder if Edward Campbell and Old Sweat knew how much they'd change the world of future operations with that carbon paper invention of theirs. What's old is new again!!

 >:D
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #128 on: December 13, 2011, 20:46:34 »
So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us? They're not worth keeping because some only want to focus on this mysterious group of "weak-minded individuals" that apparently we never would have identified otherwise? We've had enough threads here discussing how our recruit base isn't all fresh-faced 18-year olds fresh out of high school with a fresh apron-string-ectomy scar; some have ongoing personal lives that they have done their best to put on hold while in training, but a little more flexibility in supporting their need to have occasional contact may ensure we keep those worth having.

It's time we stop acting like there is no possible benefit here by narrowing our view to only those we would wish to deny the capability.

If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?

See the difference between the two?

If a recruits family is already in a crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR needs a phone ... he'll get one. Guaranteed; and, the CF won't even make him pay for the required calls or air time to get it sorted out.

Please, as a CSM, if one of my pers is having that much issues that are MAJOR and a CRISIS ... we have ways of assisting with such. Personal cell phone not required for that to happen, so let's not all sit here and pretend that it is. Reality check. I may be a dinosaur, but I am not a heartless beotch. I would assist them in an instant as would each and every other leader I know.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 20:50:20 by ArmyVern »
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Offline Hammer Sandwich

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #129 on: December 13, 2011, 21:07:14 »
So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us?

Funny enough, I had two (2) family crises arise while in the service....one on course, and then one in the field.
(Not "you didn't wash yer shirts so I'm leavin" stuff....genuine stuff)

I was reached very promptly to inform me of both these items.

And I didn't even have a cellphone!

And didn't VR....especially in the middle of a course.

EGADS!
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #130 on: December 13, 2011, 21:16:00 »
FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.

This one is funny to me, because now a days you can have a detailed face to face conversation with someone, and the end of the conversation is usually the same everytime.

Either "I'll send you an e-mail", or "you send me an e-mail", once again detailing the conversation you just had.  GAAAAAWWDDDD!!!!!!

Separate note.  I just want to add my 2 cents to the ND conversation.  The amount that a person is charged is proportional to their level of training.  Operational ready soldiers will always have more severe punishment.  Higher ranks deserve larger punishment.  Since recruits are untrained $200 seems about right to me and an argument can be made to not even charge them at all.

How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious.

Edited to add: P.S.  It's not cool to be charged anymore?  When did this happen?  :D
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 00:30:06 by GnyHwy »

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #131 on: December 13, 2011, 21:21:48 »
How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious.

In my experience, (which lies somwhere between "Jack" and "crap").....we got rounds immediately.

Everything was monitored very closely, but we were bomed up with blanks.
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #132 on: December 13, 2011, 21:25:42 »
were bomBed up with blanks.

(Couldn't edit my last post)
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #133 on: December 13, 2011, 21:25:53 »
If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?

See the difference between the two?

If a recruits family is already in a crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR needs a phone ... he'll get one. Guaranteed; and, the CF won't even make him pay for the required calls or air time to get it sorted out.

Please, as a CSM, if one of my pers is having that much issues that are MAJOR and a CRISIS ... we have ways of assisting with such. Personal cell phone not required for that to happen, so let's not all sit here and pretend that it is. Reality check. I may be a dinosaur, but I am not a heartless beotch. I would assist them in an instant as would each and every other leader I know.

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Offline Brihard

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #134 on: December 13, 2011, 21:56:56 »
I spoke with a little birdy.

The 66% greater retention rate (sounds like a big number) turned out to apparently equal 2 troops.
The platoon involved in it was the "warrior platoon".   Electronics were taken away from a platoon of newbies who just started basic training. The platoon of warriors were allowed to keep their electronics, some of whom have been kicking around the system for a year +.
Some people when told they were loosing their electronics, quit. (Are those the kinda soldiers we want defending Canada?)

In the end the 'do everything possible to keep these recruits in the CF' turned out to see less VRs....but more training failures. The ones who didn't belong and wanted to quit but were coerced into staying ended up passing recruit school  but failing their trades course, quitting down the road or punted out for discipline and administrative issues.

Wow. Someone never took a research methods class.

So you mean they actually trialed it on such a small scale with two very disparate groups of recruits? I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more comment.
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #135 on: December 13, 2011, 22:09:37 »
"If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?"

I'm not a techno-geek I don't think. My cell phone is 4 years old and I have a CRT tv. I did not bring any electronics to BMQ six years ago other than a battery-powered clock. I didn't think we would be allowed the stuff at any point and it didn't really matter what the policy was as once the first weekend off came around, people invaded the mall and bought cell phones, DVD players, ipods, etc. It all came out at night but stuff still got done. In retrospect, I wish I had a camera back then as our DS never had a problem with those. Especially in the field phase where they would be in many of the photos.

As far as deployment, during 6 months in Italy for OP Mobile I was dumbstruck at some of the people and their addictions. People with 5 to 25 years of service I'm talking here. Our hotel had free wireless in the lobby but everyone bought USB-powered Tim or Wind rocket sticks for their rooms and work that never worked that great. The lobby was good enough for me the whole time but listening to the daily complaints got very old, very fast. "The stick isn't working and the Italian at the store won't refund my $ and pretends to not speak English", "my gaming is too slow", "Skype sucks and I need it as my kids don't know how to talk on the phone." I just shook my head as I thought we were very lucky to have the living conditions we had.

Mentioning how it could be worse, like when I was a kid and was lucky to get one collect phone call per week due to the high costs, didn't seem to help them realize how internet in Europe is a lot different than back home. I remember my father telling me a story how when he travelled to Germany over 20 years ago you could not make collect calls from that country. So ten people would pile into a van and drive half an hour to a border town in France (where you can call collect) to make a 15 minute call. Hearing about that made me enjoy being "off the grid" so to speak.

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #136 on: December 14, 2011, 00:04:03 »

How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious.


On our BMOQ this past summer we were issued live rounds before blanks. We performed the weapons test in garrison at the end of the week (6??) and then went to the range the following Monday. They issued us the rounds as we walked onto the range for that specific shoot. If I remember correctly it wasn't until week 12 that we were issued blanks in the field. Our platoon staff took ND's seriously and there was one during our final exercise. That person was charged and had to pay somewhere around $150.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #137 on: December 14, 2011, 00:48:39 »
Wow. Someone never took a research methods class.

So you mean they actually trialed it on such a small scale with two very disparate groups of recruits? I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more comment.

This is what I am told.

The platoon to keep their electronics were the ones in the overweigh/medical broken platoon who have had access to their toys for a long timr already and the ones who had them taken away were the fresh new ones.
And percentage wise I'm told it translated into 2 extra people for that course.  I thought he said some courses can be as large as 90 troops.

I think if all of a sudden you banned electronics from the crew who had them all along you would see a large number of drop outs.  But them howard would quit or medically VR anyways.

All we accomplish with this policy is to shelter recruits
From one of the major hardships they will face down the road (and should be prepared for).
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Offline SentryMAn

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #138 on: December 14, 2011, 08:01:37 »
It's the CF not Grade School, Less hand holding and more pushing recruits to perform better.

I did My basic 3 years ago.  We didn't have electronics available other then a camera(only 1 per section).  There were people that had things happen at home, they used the machine on the wall in the elevator rooms to talk to them, the main difference is that you weren't as comfortable as laying on your bed.

We had 4 VR's, 3 Re-courses, and 3 RTU's  NONE were due to the inability to adapt to lack of electronics.  I do see the point of the pro group, and the point of the anti group.  I still feel that Monday - Friday Electronics should be Off limits to recruits, Talk to your platoon mates rather then your buddy Johny on Facebook.  Call your Mom from the pay phone, Ask to receive mail(note there's no "E-" there).  Life after Garrison will get better, anyone can do it for 13-15 weeks.

But again in the grand scheme of things, it's at the CO's discretion, what they wish will be done.

I always wanted a course staff like "Major Payne"   ;D  But My platoon staff was amazing.


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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #139 on: December 14, 2011, 08:52:34 »
I always wanted a course staff like "Major Payne"   ;D  But My platoon staff was amazing.

I've had a couple................and no you don't want them.
 Most of us that have been in a while have had something go bad or happen while we were away and we dealt with it. I found out I was getting divorced in 94 while I was on tour in Bosnia. I got a couple of extra 10 minute welfare phone calls did all I could do on the phone then that was that. Having a cell phone wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Fast forward to 05 on my 6b 3weeks before Xmas and 2 weeks left in the course found out I was getting divorced again (yeah I know my track record sucks) I had a cell phone that time and spent almost all night for 2 nights trying to sort, beg, plead it out. I failled traces both days do to lack of sleep and worrying what was happening. One of my buddies was the DS and he sat me down and asked WTF was happening, I got some good advice and finished and passed the course(didn't bother phoning again). Did the cell phone help? Nope not one bit.
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Offline SentryMAn

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #140 on: December 14, 2011, 09:00:42 »
You can imagine how my Basic was being the only Air reservist on it and my staff was all Combat arms.

We had 4 guys have long term relationships break up while they were on course, cellulars would not have helped.  I had my own issues with home life too, it puts a stress on you but as the saying goes "If it doesn't kill you it can only make you stronger".  Which I feel I am a much stronger person post then pre basic.  I just wish I hadn't released.

I suppose we can argue for/against and in each there will be lots of examples of how someone stayed in either way and became a great soldier.

I still REALLY think that there should be a mandatory class at the High School level on proper etiquette for Cellular Phone and computer use.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #141 on: December 14, 2011, 09:18:44 »
I still REALLY think that there should be a mandatory class at the High School level on proper etiquette for Cellular Phone and computer use.

Not required. Lets make sure they can Read, Write and perform basic Math functions like adding, subtracting and all that boring stuff. A bit of History wouldn't hurt either.

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Offline frank1515

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #142 on: December 14, 2011, 10:09:55 »
Not required. Lets make sure they can Read, Write and perform basic Math functions like adding, subtracting and all that boring stuff. A bit of History wouldn't hurt either.

Agreed with Mr. Seggie (unless he's being sarcastic...) Teaching proper etiquette, manners and common sense is the job of parents, not teachers.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #143 on: December 14, 2011, 10:12:39 »
People tend to abuse the "I have family issues I need my cell phone on me at all times" a lot.  I've often found it's just a lie to let the member keep their cell on and on them.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #144 on: December 14, 2011, 10:24:00 »
People tend to abuse the "I have family issues I need my cell phone on me at all times" a lot.  I've often found it's just a lie to let the member keep their cell on and on them.

Then anyone who plays this card needs to be interviewed by their section commander, their Pl WO, the Pl Comd, the CSM and the OC - culminating in an interview with the padre after investigation of "Family issues". If the investigation uncovers the "lie" then the offending person can - and should be - charged.

Agreed with Mr. Seggie (unless he's being sarcastic...) Teaching proper etiquette, manners and common sense is the job of parents, not teachers.
Not being sarcastic. School has enouhg enough to do without the extra burden of teaching  numpties how to be courteus.

Our students in Manitoba damn near bottomed out on standard tests - which tells me we have - or more correctly dunces administrating the school system.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 11:25:32 by Jim Seggie »
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #145 on: December 14, 2011, 10:45:19 »
FMP and the carbon paper (which doubled as field expedient cam) is far better than e-mailing. You don't read half teh e-mails that are sent cause everyone is sending them for everything, like birthday announcements and cr@p like that.

FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.

I seem to remember doing all my adreps in the field by that method for years...still have a few of them lying around in my FMP from Haiti IIRC.  And I don't remember how many times someone in the same office as me sent me an e-mail for something that really demanded them looking at me and saying "Hey MM ...  :blah:" or wandering that 50ft down the hall or even just picking up the phone and saying "I'm coming over, or please come here or just meet me out in the smoke pit in 5".  I guess face to face comms these days is Skype or other equivalent, even for someone in the same cubicle cell  ::).

 :2c:

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #146 on: December 14, 2011, 10:51:37 »
This one is funny to me, because now a days you can have a detailed face to face conversation with someone, and the end of the conversation is usually the same everytime.

Either "I'll send you an e-mail", or "you send me an e-mail", once again detailing the conversation you just had.  GAAAAAWWDDDD!!!!!!


email is the "new" carbon paper.
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #147 on: December 14, 2011, 11:01:44 »
Agreed with Mr. Seggie (unless he's being sarcastic...) Teaching proper etiquette, manners and common sense is the job of parents, not teachers.

Some people just can't live without someone to talk to all the time.  I often wonder why anyone would go to a movie if all they are going to do in the theatre is sit and chat or text on their cell phone.  Yes, many people have to learn proper etiquette.  Many more really should learn that they do not have to be in constant communications with someone else at all times, in all places.  When Bluetooth first arrived, I was under the impression that the Lunie Bin had released all their inmates and they were now walking around the grocery aisles muttering to themselves.  Crap!   People can't even go shopping without talking on a cell phone.

If some Trooper were to sit in my OP and chat/text on a Cell Phone instead of silently observing, they would be charged......In the Turkish Army, they would likely be shot.
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Offline 1984

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #148 on: December 14, 2011, 11:47:41 »
...and a group of quality recruits still was produced.

That is subjective.  Some of my worst soldiers often speak of their "quality", being unable to see (or accept) their own shortcomings.  No one is saying the troops themselves are junk (although some may be, and time will tell), only that their potential is not tapped or tested until later down the stream because of concessions like these.  If we don't measure these individuals limitations in basic how can we expect them to perform in the real world?  This (in my mind) is bigger than just cell phones to call home or ND's being treated as something that just happens to everyone.  How many times do I need to run over my wife with the car before someone decides that my drivers training was insufficient?  I would by no means ever hold myself up as the example of perfection, but, I would expect that the soldiers I get on my end at the very least have a basic respect for the CoC, don't question orders and can polish their boots.  If they question everything, hold the leadership in contempt, and can't be bothered to turn up in the morning looking presentable that downloads a lot of responsibility to me and my subordinate leaders to deal with; issues that should have been slapped out of them in basic training.  No the sky is not falling but everyday feels more and more like this:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,103733.0.html

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #149 on: December 14, 2011, 12:20:54 »
We were a bunch of brand new people.  Work still got done, we still bonded as a team, and a group of quality recruits still was produced.


Your opinion and that of your instructors vary....

When they say teamwork and overall standard suffered I'll take their word over you the former recruits word in an heartbeat.
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