Author Topic: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class  (Read 51190 times)

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Offline S.M.A.

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Still no news on the winning bid yet:

Agence France Presse via News Republic

Quote
Japan steps up bid to win Australia submarine contract
AFP

MONDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 2016 12:52 AM GMT

Japan has assured Australia it will share its most secret stealth technology if it wins a contract to design and build Canberra's next generation of submarines, a report said Monday.

Three international bidders are competing for the project worth up to Aus$50 billion (US$36 billion) to replace Australia's current diesel and electric-powered Collins Class submarines which are set to be retired from about 2026.

The tender process is now closed with submissions received from DCNS of France, Germany's TKMS and the Japanese government.

Besides matching the range and endurance of the Collins Class, the new generation of subs are expected to offer superior sensor performance and stealth capabilities.

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Offline S.M.A.

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More on the DCNS bid:

ASPI Strategist

Quote
SEA 1000: A Franco–Australian solution
10 Feb 2016|Sean Costello

Where Australia selects France, it selects enduring geopolitical alignment and surety of supply, a program of technical transfer to deliver sovereignty, a regionally superior capability and interoperability with our allies.

I can make those statements with respect to France because France is a complete submarine power and has national polices to remain so. A complete submarine power is one that can safely design, build, operate and sustain any class of submarine on an enduring basis.

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Quote

The relevance of those capabilities are brought to bear when one considers the Australian Future Submarine requirement, which self-evidently calls for a new submarine and not one that’s in existence today. Although it may seem obvious, it’s worth pointing out that when DCNS received Australia’s requirement we immediately recognised that the French Barracuda was the most suitable reference design and not our existing conventional design.

As a complete submarine power, we understand conventional propulsion, which is why we also understand that propulsion is but one part of the submarine puzzle. In designing to the Australian requirement, it should come as no surprise then that the conventionally powered Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A is only 5% lighter than its nuclear cousin.

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Offline S.M.A.

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Mitsubishi willing to build Soryu class subs in Australia
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2016, 11:11:54 »
Mitsubishi's counter offer to TKMS's earlier pitch to buy ASC to provide jobs in South Australia:

Nikkei

Quote
February 12, 2016 1:00 am JST

Australian defense

Mitsubishi Heavy willing to build subs Down Under

KAORI TAKAHASHI, Nikkei staff writer

SYDNEY -- Hungry for a defense contract worth tens of billions of U.S. dollars, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries has expressed a willingness to construct Australia's next-generation submarines entirely in-country.

The company "will be happy to oblige" if asked to build all of the new vessels here, President Shunichi Miyanaga told a news conference Thursday.

Australia is expected to spend more than 4 trillion yen ($35.6 billion) on the project.
Mitsubishi Heavy, which constructed Soryu-class submarines for Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force, has been bidding with the Japanese government.

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Offline S.M.A.

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A Soryu deal closer than previously thought?

Japan Times

Quote
Australia increasingly likely to pick Japan for huge submarine order, experts say
BY JESSE JOHNSON
STAFF WRITER
MAR 1, 2016
With Australia’s release of its defense white paper last week, the race to build the country’s next generation of submarines enters the home stretch — and some experts say the Japanese bid appears to hold an insurmountable lead.

“The DWP (Defense White Paper) strongly stresses the importance of further strengthening U.S.-Japanese defense relations and is also quite vocal about China’s challenge to the rules-based order in maritime Asia,” Ben Schreer, a professor at Macquarie University in Sydney, said.

“In my view, it’s highly likely that the Turnbull government will choose the Japanese design for strategic and technological reasons, and the DWP has added weight to this,” he said, referring to Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull.

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Offline S.M.A.

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Interview with an ex-JMSDF submarine CO who now works in industry, who discusses the advantages of Japanese-made subs:

Nikkei

Quote

March 27, 2016 1:00 pm JST
Interview
Japan should protect tech secrets in Aussie submarine bid


TOKYO -- Japan's leading shipbuilders Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries are strongly promoting their technological strengths to Australia in a bid to win contracts to build that country's next generation of submarines. Mitsubishi Heavy said that it is considering building all the vessels in Australia, but hurdles remain, such as how to train local engineers in such a short period of time. Management of costs and protection of technological secrets are also major concerns.

 Toshihide Yamauchi, councillor at the Taiheiyo Engineering, a Tokyo-based defense-focused consultancy, discussed how the Japanese camp can prepare for these challenges, in a recent interview with The Nikkei. Yamauchi previously served as captain of the Japanese submarine Setoshio.

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Quote
Q: Compared to the German and French rivals in the bidding, what are the advantages of the Japanese submarines?

A: The Japanese submarines can dive much longer without having to surface. This is a significant technology. Japan's Ministry of Defense has said it plans to replace conventional lead-acid batteries with more powerful lithium-ion cells, which will enable the vessels to cruise at high speeds underwater.

     The Japanese submarine is as capable in combat as the German boats. Our country is also advanced in combat systems (which can pick out specific sounds of the enemy from surrounding noise and conduct operations based on this information). In addition, Japan has a well-developed supply chain for submarine building. There are companies that can custom-make even a single screw for a submarine.

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Offline OTR1

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Um, it wouldn't be very intelligent for a serving seaman and engineering RAN bubblehead to write an article for publication, but somehow this one, just published, aligns to the tune of 100 per cent with the views of RAN sub country on the garbage consistently published on the Soryu boats.

From Aust. Defence Monthly.


The submarine problem - deeper than meets the eye


ADM writers

It’s been said so often but never actually examined in great detail – the Future Submarine Program is strategic for Japan and Australia. In speaking to the submarine community, past and present, what comes through is that cooperation with Japan results in a Future Submarine that can approach the performances of Collins but only with a completely new design and one that will definitely not be regionally superior post 2030. This is alarming and requires pause for thought.

The root-cause of this problem is that Japan does not have any technology that is, well, regionally superior. Indeed it is the reverse situation - Japan’s relative submarine capability is improved by the Future Submarine Program but not Australia’s.

The Future Submarine is strategic for Japan, but not for Australia.

The Australian Government tells us that the next generation of RAN submarines will be regionally superior because they will have higher performances in stealth, sensors, range and endurance, and of course the US-origin combat system and weapons. With superior performances in these areas, the Future Submarine can outmatch any other submarine the RAN might conceivably fight, including the nearly silent nuclear attack submarines emerging from Russia and in the future, China. In the decades to come these submarines will hunt, and be hunted by, Australian submarines and it’s important to note that the RAN may not get to choose who to fight or when – they might choose us.

To say it in plain English, if the Collins were to fight the Soryu today Collins would kill it every time.

But what if the international partner for Australia has no better technology than we already have access to? The undeniable logic is the Future Submarine will offer performances no better than the Collins Class Submarine it replaces. An ‘Australianised’ Soryu will not be regionally superior beyond 2030. This is the critical issue.

And there is no technology offered by Japan to suggest any evolution of the Soryu can change this situation in the future.

None.

In lobbying Australia to accept their submarine, Japan has disclosed enough about its own capabilities in open literature to prove this. The Soryu Class, Japan’s most modern submarine, offers no improvement over Collins in any capability area – not stealth, not sonar, not range nor endurance and not combat system or weapon. Moreover, there is no objective evidence that Japan can overcome these problems with a new design. Let's examine the case for the Soryu point by point.

Stealth

Stealth in submarines is mostly determined by the noise of the submarine, making it vulnerable to detection by the enemy (the noise of machinery, vibration, the flow of water over the hull and the propeller at all speeds) as well as the echo the submarine may return from enemy active sonar. For a submarine to be detected by active sonar its position is generally already localised by an adversary.

The extent to which the noise generated by on-board machinery is reduced is determined by the vibration of the equipment in the first instance, followed by the effectiveness of acoustic isolation treatments. Submarine designs since the 1980s, including the Collins, isolate vibration by a combination of treatments at each and every interface between the equipment, the hull of the submarine and the deck itself. However at least one technical paper made public by Kawasaki confirms that the Soryu does not have acoustic isolation between the deck and the hull.

This problem is clear as the production process described by Kawasaki in its own literature is incompatible with any conceivable method for acoustic isolation of the deck from the hull. Without isolation of the deck from the hull, acoustic isolation is incomplete and will result in higher acoustic signatures and loss of stealth capability. Alarmingly, the acoustic signature of the Soryu is very likely to be higher than that of the Collins and the problem is literally welded in. Fixing the problem is not straight forward as the Soryu's double hull sections constrain the available internal volume for installation of the acoustic systems. Even before the problems of range and endurance are considered, a complete redesign of the Soryu based on technology from outside Japan is required - perhaps Australia will donate this technology to Japan from the Collins?

As the phrase suggests, a double hull creates one small submarine inside a larger one. Only the internal hull, with the smaller diameter, is designed to resist the external seawater pressure. The external hull is comprised of tanks for fuel and ballast. A double hull can save weight but can introduce other problems.


Whole article via the link, here  -  http://www.australiandefence.com.au/news/the-submarine-problem-deeper-than-meets-the-eye
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 14:34:50 by OTR1 »

Offline Colin P

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Are the other countries offering anything that much different in ability than the Japanese. Can Australia afford to go to far beyond the Collin's class abilities?   

Offline S.M.A.

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Defence Aerospace

Quote
Decision Close On Australian Submarine Contract
(Source: Forecast International; issued April 5, 2016)
MELBOURNE, Australia --- Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has indicated that a decision is close on the winner for the $36 billion contract to build Australia's new submarine class. Tenders have been submitted by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. ThyssenKrupp AG and DCNS for the contract to build 12 new submarines.

Expectations are that the winning bidder would be announced before the next election, even if an early poll was called for July. Much depends upon the passage of two unrelated items of legislation through the Australian Government. One of these is a tax reform bill that, if rejected again would trigger a "double dissolution" election in which both houses of the Australian government would be subject to re-election.

If this takes place, the selected site for the construction of the submarines may well prove to be a decisive issue.


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Offline S.M.A.

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The decision on the new sub will be announced next week. A lot of press lately seems to suggest that Japan is out of the race.

ABC News (Australia)

Quote
Submarine deal: Successful bid for new Royal Australian Navy boats to be announced next week
Exclusive by political editor Chris Uhlmann
Updated about an hour ago

 
The Federal Government is preparing to announce the successful bidder for Australia's new fleet of submarines next week.

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Offline OTR1

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......Japan is out of the race.
Gosh, that does surprise me.  ::)

Offline S.M.A.

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Japan's Soryu class eliminated from Aussie sub tender
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2016, 20:04:03 »
No more hope for Soryus for Australia?

Wall Street Journal

Quote
Japan Falls Behind in Race for Australian Submarine Contract
Japanese bid was viewed as risky because of inexperience building naval equipment overseas


By Rob Taylor
Updated April 20, 2016 6:36 a.m. ET
6 COMMENTS

CANBERRA, Australia—Japan has been virtually eliminated from a multibillion-dollar contest to supply Australia’s navy with new submarines, two people familiar with the matter said, with German or French competitors now favored to win one of the world’s most lucrative current weapons deals.

Senior Australian security ministers met Tuesday to consider offers to build 12 conventionally powered submarines in Australia, the people said. While the conservative government has yet to make a final decision, one of the people said the Japanese bid was viewed as having “considerable risk,” given Japanese inexperience building naval equipment overseas.

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Offline Colin P

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More like "cleansing any potential taint of the contract" they may be making sure that if Japan is chosen that the deal looks all above board and based on technical specs.

Offline S.M.A.

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Thoughts, OTR?

Reuters

Quote
Australian police to investigate submarine tender leak: ABC
Reuters – 22 hours ago

SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australian police are investigating how confidential information about the outcome of a tender process for Australia's next submarine fleet was leaked to the media, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation reported on Saturday.

It is the second leak from within the military acquisition project which has come down to a race between bids from French, German and Japanese companies for an A$50 billion contract to build 12 submarines.

Australia's Federal Police confirmed in a statement to the ABC that they had been asked to investigate, the broadcaster said. Police spokesmen were not available for comment.

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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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Offline YZT580

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I suppose that this announcement by the police simply verifies the veracity of the leak. 

Offline OTR1

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Thoughts, OTR?
My thoughts?

I concur with YZT's comment re the leak and its implications.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 13:23:17 by OTR1 »

Offline S.M.A.

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From Twitter:

Quote
The Today Show Verified account
‏@TheTodayShow

.@9NewsAUS can reveal the French Consortium has been awarded the contract for next gen AUS submarines. #9Today

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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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Offline S.M.A.

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France's DCNS wins Australian future sub bid
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2016, 00:40:25 »
More details on the winning French bid:

Sydney Morning Herald

Quote
France wins $50b contract to help build Australia's new submarines

Date
    April 26, 2016 - 1:14PM


David Wroe


Australia's new 12-strong submarines fleet will be built in South Australia, with France's DCNS winning the $50 billion contract. Courtesy ABC News 24.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has announced all 12 of Australia's next fleet of submarines will be built in Adelaide from local steel, with France winning the hard-fought global race for the $50 billion contract.


Mr Turnbull said in Adelaide on Tuesday morning that the decades-long program would create about 2800 direct jobs and help Australia transition to a 21st century economy.

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2016, 01:26:19 »
Well that is an interesting turn of events...

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2016, 06:10:39 »
Shocking.

Hopefully these will be quieter than anything else that comes from France..

Offline GR66

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Re: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2016, 09:02:33 »
Shocking.

Hopefully these will be quieter than anything else that comes from France..

  ;D


Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2016, 10:10:08 »
Massive statement of intent from Australia.  12 Nuclear Powered subs capable of launching cruise missiles.  The Aussies are becoming a serious military power. 

Offline Colin P

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Re: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2016, 10:23:40 »
I thought these were diesel-electric subs based off of a nuke sub hull?

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2016, 10:26:24 »
They are: It is quite specifically mentioned in the third paragraph from the end in the Newspaper article quoted.

besides, the whole contest has always been of diesel electric boats - the nuclear option had been rejected by Australia some time ago.

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Re: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2016, 10:27:25 »
Massive statement of intent from Australia.  12 Nuclear Powered subs capable of launching cruise missiles.  The Aussies are becoming a serious military power.

Not quite Bogie.

Quote
DCNS makes a wide range of cutting-edge submarines, ranging from small attack boats to massive strategic nuclear missile submarines.

Their Shortfin Barracuda design will be a variant of an existing French nuclear-powered boat. It will be converted to a diesel-electric powered design.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/france-wins-50b-submarine-contract-20160425-goeuxh.html#ixzz46wVwFO4K
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

A non-standard nuclear boat converted to diesel-electric.  This could be interesting - in the pop-corn munching way.

God.  Getting slower.  Beaten by Colin and OGBD
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2016, 10:50:17 »
Not quite Bogie.

A non-standard nuclear boat converted to diesel-electric.  This could be interesting - in the pop-corn munching way.

God.  Getting slower.  Beaten by Colin and OGBD

I missed that!  Thx!