Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 735609 times)

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Offline WingsofFury

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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« on: October 19, 2015, 15:10:00 »
So I thought I'd start this thread to get the debate rolling....

My vote goes to the SLAM Eagle.  I've stated the reasons previously.

Here's a question to ponder; could a competition be held that would exclude the F-35 as mentioned by the Liberals?

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2015, 15:26:10 »
Some fancifying on how a PM Trudeau might finagle the F-35 with President Obama:

Quote
Canadian Election: ISIS, the F-35, Justin Trudeau and POTUS
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/mark-collins-canadian-election-isis-the-f-35-justin-trudeau-and-potus

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2015, 15:31:17 »
So I thought I'd start this thread to get the debate rolling....

My vote goes to the SLAM Eagle.  I've stated the reasons previously.

Here's a question to ponder; could a competition be held that would exclude the F-35 as mentioned by the Liberals?

Oh and who exactly is going to buy this aircraft other than us?  Everyone else has either signed up to buy the F35 or opted for a cheaper Russian or French aircraft.

Our only real options are the F35 or the Rafale. 

Offline WingsofFury

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2015, 15:56:45 »
Oh and who exactly is going to buy this aircraft other than us?  Everyone else has either signed up to buy the F35 or opted for a cheaper Russian or French aircraft.

Our only real options are the F35 or the Rafale.

I realise what you're stating, RoyalDrew; I just ask that you do some research on which countries already use variants of the F-15E Strike Eagle before writing me off.

Cheers.

Offline Spencer100

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2015, 16:40:00 »
I'm betting if it is a Liberal government, approx. 25 F-35 (Canadian businesses have too much lose) And a Hawk replacement RFQ with some extra to go for air policing.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2015, 17:53:58 »
WoF, RoyalDrew was probably thinking the same as I was, that you were being specific about SLAM Eagle.  Other than Korea, who operates the 15K? No one.  APG-63(V)1?  *yawn* Fusion for 5th Gen warfare? Neg.

Big, fast bomb truck that can dog fight with Gen 4s once it drops all the bomb stuff..

You took me to task for proponency for Silent Eage but your okay with a decade-old variant of the Eagle? ???

SLAM ER?  Sure, but we could put that on AIMP Block 5 a lot easier, if we're also going to be feeding the ISR-sphere at the same time...

At this point, Libs will probably back out of the cut with a partial fleet of 35s (maybe 25-ish) and whatever continental defence  balances the cost...SH or Grippen NG.

:2c:

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2015, 18:08:01 »
At this point, Libs will probably back out of the cut with a partial fleet of 35s (maybe 25-ish) and whatever continental defence  balances the cost...SH or Grippen NG.

Or, in a similar vein, follow what the Australians did a few years ago and buy SH as an "interim" measure for the F-35....and then say it was to "supplement" it instead. 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline dapaterson

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2015, 18:56:26 »
I'm betting if it is a Liberal government, approx. 25 F-35 (Canadian businesses have too much lose) And a Hawk replacement RFQ with some extra to go for air policing.

AFAIK, the Hawks are not RCAF, but belong to the contractor. Not our problem to replace. One of the advantages of contracting out.
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Offline Downhiller229

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2015, 20:20:09 »
The Hawks are leased to Bombardier by a federal entity. Not our problem to maintain, totally our problem to replace.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2015, 20:20:12 »
AFAIK, the Hawks are not RCAF, but belong to the contractor. Not our problem to replace. One of the advantages of contracting out.

Not our circus, not our monkeys.  :nod:

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2015, 20:23:07 »
The Hawks are leased to Bombardier by a federal entity. Not our problem to maintain, totally our problem decision as to how to replace.

One person's problem is another's opportunity. 

Offline dapaterson

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2015, 20:25:16 »
The Hawks are leased to Bombardier by a federal entity. Not our problem to maintain, totally our problem to replace.
Nope. Owned by CAE who bought the business from Bombardier.
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Offline WingsofFury

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2015, 23:32:45 »
Good2Golf, you want us, Canada, to pay for the development of a plane that isn't even in production yet in the Silent Eagle; how much money do you really think we'll have left after the cuts to DND are done?

You have a problem with an air superiority fighter that has made the transition to the penultimate strike fighter gradually.  As an A2A platform equipped with AESA radar, there is no threat that this platform couldn't counter.  When it comes to being part of a strike package, as is often part of our role when involved in NATO or UN missions, we'll be able to stay on target longer and carry out more strikes due to the larger weapons capacity which the SG variant would carry. This would only be enhanced by the carriage of the SDB.

Finally, the Strike Eagle will be in international and US service well into the 2050's which means that part sourcing when needed won't be an issue. The SG is a relatively new platform, and all of the avionics and weapons systems onboard are new.  The awesome thing about the platform is that it made the transition to Strike platform about as smoothly as anyone could have envisaged.

Thanks for your 0.02...but please consider what I'm proposing above.

Finally, given that there WILL be cuts, I doubt very much that we'll have a split fleet.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2015, 23:35:17 »
So we buy a fighter now, for delivery in 2022, that has a service life until 2050, that we'll use until 2065 based on past procurement models? What part of that gap makes any sense to you?

Offline Downhiller229

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2015, 00:26:09 »
Nope. Owned by CAE who bought the business from Bombardier.

CAE owns the NFTC contract to maintain the aircraft and installations. Not the actual airframes. 

http://www.cae.com/CAE-to-acquire-Bombardier-s-Military-Aviation-Training-unit-to-expand-training-systems-integration-offering/

You think they bought 30 some airframes for 19 million? Of course not... They don't own the airframes, DND doesn't own the airframes. A government corporation does and leases them to BMAT now CAE. They are responsible to maintain them and provide training. When they are finished the government will have to replace them.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2015, 00:51:01 »
Sopwith Camel

Or a upgraded Mosquito
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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2015, 02:55:19 »
Good2Golf, you want us, Canada, to pay for the development of a plane that isn't even in production yet in the Silent Eagle; how much money do you really think we'll have left after the cuts to DND are done?

If Canada's investment to operationalize the 15SE that Boeing had developed in prototype form will provide a capability that provides Canada with a cost-effective balance of measured stealth technology (conformal weapons bays [CWB], coatings, canted stabilizers, etc...) along with integration of advanced sensor and C2 fusion capabilities, then yes, it is something to consider.  Canada did it in a measured manner with the CH-147F Chinook, getting value for money invested, providing capability that has been implemented on other advanced Chinook operators, to Canada's follow-on benefit.


You have a problem with an air superiority fighter that has made the transition to the penultimate strike fighter gradually.  As an A2A platform equipped with AESA radar, there is no threat that this platform couldn't counter.  When it comes to being part of a strike package, as is often part of our role when involved in NATO or UN missions, we'll be able to stay on target longer and carry out more strikes due to the larger weapons capacity which the SG variant would carry. This would only be enhanced by the carriage of the SDB.

No, but you referred to the SLAM Eagle, or F-15K, which has an AN/APG-63(V)1 physically-scanned radar, not AESA.  If you wanted to upgrade your 'preferred variant' from your aforementioned SLAM Eagle to the F-15SG, then you will pick up the 63(V)3 AESA variant, with the general benefit that an AESA radar provides (of course mindful of the significantly reduced off bore-sight accuracy due to widening beam width and increased side lobes - concessions to the increased performance of a fixed AESA antenna).  One would have to determine where the larger load trade-off against concomitant low-observability requirements balances, but I'd assess that ability to carry stores internally as per the F-15SE's CWB, still with a significant load out, including SDBs, to be desirable in conducting strike missions in higher threat/more complex counter-air environments.

Finally, the Strike Eagle will be in international and US service well into the 2050's which means that part sourcing when needed won't be an issue. The SG is a relatively new platform, and all of the avionics and weapons systems onboard are new.  The awesome thing about the platform is that it made the transition to Strike platform about as smoothly as anyone could have envisaged.

As would the F-15SE, if produced.

Thanks for your 0.02...but please consider what I'm proposing above.

As noted above, I did that.  Please consider that I considered what you were proposing above, and further constrained the capability to more closely align with the overall capabilities that Canada's pervious government was looking for in the JSF.

Finally, given that there WILL be cuts, I doubt very much that we'll have a split fleet.

While split fleets would result in increased (per total fighter units operated by a force) in-service support, until one determines what the acquisition costs and fleet sizes would be for a moderated two-fleet option, one cannot immediately write-off the possibility of operating two-fleets.

:2c::2c:

Regards
G2G

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2015, 08:21:34 »
Avro Arrow....?

There's a group out west building a 2/3 scale Arrow....capable of flight even. 

I guess the question underlying it all should probably be, what will the (new?) Defence White Paper say we need to have? 

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2015, 08:26:10 »
I hope you're not talking about that Bourdeaux guy that wants $3B to give us 2 prototypes so he can compete in a contract.

Canada can do better than a 1950s design. We might as well update the CF-86 and use that.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2015, 09:13:46 »
We might as well update the CF-86 and use that.

USAF already did that- the F100 Supersabre. The napalm laden, cluster bomb workhorse of the early part of the Vietnam conflict.

unfortunately, if there is to be a new fighter procurement under this government, I cannot see Trudeau changing the course of the ship away from the F-35. Too much of Quebec is tied up in that. Also, based on latest costs, the ceiling cap of $9B CAD means there will be far fewer than 65 aircraft acquired, so the door is edging ever closer to the more pragmatic decision which is- "at this cost, why have fighter jets at all". Politically, it may be more "progressive and a new way of thinking for Canadians" if this entire range of capability is deleted from inventory and financially, well, the deficit just got that much smaller.

The only way around that is s snap decision to buy used F18F  Super Hornets or used Typhoons from Germany. 

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2015, 09:51:16 »
USAF already did that- the F100 Supersabre. The napalm laden, cluster bomb workhorse of the early part of the Vietnam conflict.

unfortunately, if there is to be a new fighter procurement under this government, I cannot see Trudeau changing the course of the ship away from the F-35. Too much of Quebec is tied up in that. Also, based on latest costs, the ceiling cap of $9B CAD means there will be far fewer than 65 aircraft acquired, so the door is edging ever closer to the more pragmatic decision which is- "at this cost, why have fighter jets at all". Politically, it may be more "progressive and a new way of thinking for Canadians" if this entire range of capability is deleted from inventory and financially, well, the deficit just got that much smaller.

The only way around that is s snap decision to buy used F18F  Super Hornets or used Typhoons from Germany. 

.       

It's a conversation that may happen, although the results may not be what Canadians really want.  If we decide to not buy fighters, than expect us to pull (get kicked out of NORAD) and the Americans to take over our air space. 


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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2015, 10:05:17 »
I would favour a F-15 over the SH, but I could easily see using buying them as the line is open ti 2017. Unless they plan on having a "competition" desgined to allow the F-35 to win, carry on as before and eat the lawsuit costs that will appear. 

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2015, 10:24:58 »
It's a conversation that may happen, although the results may not be what Canadians really want.  If we decide to not buy fighters, than expect us to pull (get kicked out of NORAD) and the Americans to take over our air space.

I would hope that the DND Deputy Minister and CDS will have the ability to brief the new government of the errors of their ways. Also there are enough veteran Liberal MP's who (I would hope) curtail more of the silly Trudeau proposals.

I have no doubt that a majority of the Liberal leftish policies will be quietly shifted to the far right on the priority calendar. That has been their MO forever and I see no change in that policy.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Fighter (Post 2015 Election Thread)
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2015, 11:57:49 »
I would hope that the DND Deputy Minister and CDS will have the ability to brief the new government of the errors of their ways. Also there are enough veteran Liberal MP's who (I would hope) curtail more of the silly Trudeau proposals.

I have no doubt that a majority of the Liberal leftish policies will be quietly shifted to the far right on the priority calendar. That has been their MO forever and I see no change in that policy.

I do think our NATO allies will lean on the young Dauphin as well. Much the same as Maggie did to Pierre the Ponce.
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