Author Topic: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy  (Read 153427 times)

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #175 on: January 06, 2016, 13:09:44 »


The one thing I find curious about that graph, given the imprecision of the x-axis, is that the UN budget appears to have shot up circa 1992-1994 - or roughly the time that Jean Chretien decided to get Canada out of the Peace-Keeping business.

Can I infer that prior to 1992 Canada, amongst others, contributed standing forces to meet emergency situations when and as necessary?  And that after 1994 they started chucking dollars at the problem, effectively buying "indulgences" and leaving the locals to their own devices?

That UN Aid money would, in my humble opinion, be much better employed, in putting the capabilities back into the forces of the contributing nations.

I believe the UK is coming around to that position.

Foreign Aid money used to fund British military operations abroad
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/379139/David-Cameron-keen-to-give-foreign-aid-to-war-zones

Foreign Aid money used to resettle refugees in Britain
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/refugee-crisis-uk-foreign-aid-budget-to-be-spent-housing-people-in-britain-george-osborne-says-10488561.html

Britain is using the 0.7% of GDP model which results in a budget of some 12 Bn UKP  vice a defence budget of 2.0% of GDP.

In Canada with a Defence budget of 1.0% of GDP a "Foreign Aid Budget" of 0.7% would supply a pool of funds from which military operations could be financed.

And if the government/military knew that those funds were available then projects like air transport, logistics ships, truck fleets, communications, IMPs, shelters - all of which benefit the ability to react immediately to international disasters - could be funded.  The fact that, in time of war, they could also be commandeered for combat purposes - is entirely immaterial and a happy coincidence.

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #176 on: January 07, 2016, 08:53:16 »
Mr. Pook, I'm not sure "standing force" would be the best description.  Perhaps 'forces available to support IGO sabilization activities' would be more accurate.  Although I have in the past, pointed out data (UNPK itself) that shows a fundamental reduction in Canada's contributions to UN PK ops after PM Chretien assumed power (IIRC, dropping from #1 under Mulroney to, by memory, #32 when Chretien left), I will note that much of Canada's 'available PK forces' were otherwise engaged in UNSCR-supported, BUT, NATO-executed peace-making ops (IFOR, SFOR, etc...).  So, troops were assigned in numbers not far off the late 80s/very-Ealy-90s, just not firefly under the UN's 'operational' mandate.

Regards,
G2G

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #177 on: January 07, 2016, 11:39:51 »
Mr. Pook, I'm not sure "standing force" would be the best description.  Perhaps 'forces available to support IGO sabilization activities' would be more accurate.  Although I have in the past, pointed out data (UNPK itself) that shows a fundamental reduction in Canada's contributions to UN PK ops after PM Chretien assumed power (IIRC, dropping from #1 under Mulroney to, by memory, #32 when Chretien left), I will note that much of Canada's 'available PK forces' were otherwise engaged in UNSCR-supported, BUT, NATO-executed peace-making ops (IFOR, SFOR, etc...).  So, troops were assigned in numbers not far off the late 80s/very-Ealy-90s, just not firefly under the UN's 'operational' mandate.

Regards,
G2G

Would those "UNSCR-supported, NATO executed peace-making ops" have been funded under UN peace-keeping budget though? 

Another coincidental event of the era would have been the formation of the African Union in 1999 and the concomitant funding of the African peace-keeping efforts.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #178 on: January 07, 2016, 23:34:54 »
Would those "UNSCR-supported, NATO executed peace-making ops" have been funded under UN peace-keeping budget though? 

Another coincidental event of the era would have been the formation of the African Union in 1999 and the concomitant funding of the African peace-keeping efforts.

Only if the op is a UN-op.  IFOR and SFOR, while supported mandate-wise by a UN Security Council Resolution, were not funded by the UN.

Some (primarily Western) nations will pass a significant portion of the UN's per-soldier payment to the nation(s), through to the soldiers.  The trend with other nations, however, is that the soldier gets very little additional stipend, and the majority of the money from the UN is retained by the particular nation's government.

Regards,
G2G

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #179 on: January 08, 2016, 10:25:47 »
....the soldier gets very little additional stipend, and the majority of the money from the UN is retained by the particular nation's government.
Kleptocracy is such an awkward term....but's it's how much of the 'third world' works.


Nigeria, as a light-hearted romp through the heart of darkness:

Percentage of Nigerians earning less than $1/day rose from 55% (2004) to 61% (2014), while millionaires have increased by 44% to 16,000 -- overwhelmingly government and military leaders.  Yet Boko Haram continues to run amok, while the UN says " :tsktsk: "


Globe & Mail, 17 June 2014.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #180 on: January 08, 2016, 11:18:20 »
Kleptocracy is such an awkward term....but's it's how much of the 'third world' works.


Nigeria, as a light-hearted romp through the heart of darkness:

Percentage of Nigerians earning less than $1/day rose from 55% (2004) to 61% (2014), while millionaires have increased by 44% to 16,000 -- overwhelmingly government and military leaders.  Yet Boko Haram continues to run amok, while the UN says " :tsktsk: "


Globe & Mail, 17 June 2014.

Nigeria is an interesting case, in that corruption and criminal activity is pretty much considered a legitimate form of business there.

Going back to my earlier post for a minute:

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,120802.msg1409759.html#msg1409759

I believe Eeben Barlow's message I posted was largely directed at the Nigerian government and military establishment.  His company, STTEP, has some recent history with them and he worked closely with them when he was involved in Sierra Leone in the 90's.

Another good book to read, if you're interested in learning about the Nigerian military corruption is a book called "Gunship Ace: The Wars of Neall Ellis, Helicopter Pilot and Mercenary"

See book here:  http://www.amazon.com/Gunship-Ace-Neall-Helicopter-Mercenary/dp/1612000703

Although not specifically about Nigerians, Ellis ended up having to work with the Nigerian Army in Sierra Leone, so his dealings with them are detailed extensively in the book.  My takeaway from it all was "don't ever trust a Nigerian".

Ellis actually recounts how he eventually went about underminning the Nigerians after he found out they were working with the people they were supposed to be protecting Sierra Leone from.  A very interesting look into the world of UN Peacekeeping corruption.  Another reason I never understand why Canadians get all hot and horny about UN Peacekeeping?   :dunno:


Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #181 on: January 08, 2016, 11:21:34 »
NigeriaMontreal is an interesting case, in that corruption and criminal activity is pretty much considered a legitimate form of business there.

We're no saints either...
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #182 on: January 08, 2016, 11:23:53 »
We're no saints either...

Don't worry DP!  I've read the book and got the inside scoop!



EDIT:

It was only after reading "Mafia Inc." that I realized Gelataria protection rackets could be so lucrative  ;D

DON'T PAY THE MAN!  NO MORE SORBET FOR YOU!

This book is also one of the sources I use to justify my great disdain for the Liberal Party of Canada, as their paw prints are all over the Italian mob.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:34:51 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #183 on: January 08, 2016, 11:51:05 »
This book is also one of the sources I use to justify my great disdain for the Liberal Party of Canada, as their paw prints are all over the Italian mob.

Well, they weren't the ones taking "consulting" payments in cash for an alleged pasta business, while still sitting as a member of parliament.  Because an Oliphant never forgets.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #184 on: January 08, 2016, 11:57:38 »
Well, they weren't the ones taking "consulting" payments in cash for an alleged pasta business, while still sitting as a member of parliament.  Because an Oliphant never forgets.

True!  Although I suppose corruption crosses political boundaries in Quebec.  The difference being, Montreal is a Liberal stronghold.  Brian Mulroney was a Red Guy disguised in Blue.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #185 on: January 08, 2016, 12:05:40 »
And so was Sir John A during the Pacific scandal?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #186 on: January 08, 2016, 12:10:25 »
And so was Sir John A during the Pacific scandal?

Och sure he wuz.  Did ye no ken that he fought as a Liberal Conservative and his backing came from all those Scots in Montreal's Golden Square Mile?  We're just as capable as ony of cutting a sharp deal.    [:D :piper:

Edit - It has always been a great source of amusement to me that the Anglos that Francos generally pretend to despise were, by and large, Scots.  I have no problem with the English taking the blame.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 12:13:49 by Chris Pook »
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline Rocky Mountains

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #187 on: January 12, 2016, 15:12:03 »
Edit - It has always been a great source of amusement to me that the Anglos that Francos generally pretend to despise were, by and large, Scots.  I have no problem with the English taking the blame.

Only the French would accuse the Scots of speaking English.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #188 on: January 23, 2016, 13:27:50 »
Well, we cannot, at least, fault our Liberal friends for not telling the truth. An article in the Globe and Mail about the new, Liberal foreign policy in the Middle East closes with a brief mention of Israel and Minister Dion's assurances that Israel "had nothing to worry about from Canada strengthening its relationship with the other legitimate partners in the region."

But change will not come too soon, said a senior Liberal ...

               “First we want to make sure we’ve got the Jewish vote back,” he said.

It's so nice to see principle back in foreign policy, isn't it?  ::)

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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #189 on: January 23, 2016, 13:49:00 »
Well, we cannot, at least, fault our Liberal friends for not telling the truth. An article in the Globe and Mail about the new, Liberal foreign policy in the Middle East closes with a brief mention of Israel and Minister Dion's assurances that Israel "had nothing to worry about from Canada strengthening its relationship with the other legitimate partners in the region."

I am wondering whom those "legitimate partners in the region" may be?  Will they give legitimacy to what were otherwise considered 'Failed' or 'Terrorist' States by previous Governments?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #190 on: January 23, 2016, 14:52:01 »
Well, we cannot, at least, fault our Liberal friends for not telling the truth. An article in the Globe and Mail about the new, Liberal foreign policy in the Middle East closes with a brief mention of Israel and Minister Dion's assurances that Israel "had nothing to worry about from Canada strengthening its relationship with the other legitimate partners in the region."

But change will not come too soon, said a senior Liberal ...

               “First we want to make sure we’ve got the Jewish vote back,” he said.

It's so nice to see principle back in foreign policy, isn't it?  ::)

No racism there, eh?
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

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ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #191 on: January 23, 2016, 15:18:34 »
I am wondering whom those "legitimate partners in the region" may be?  Will they give legitimacy to what were otherwise considered 'Failed' or 'Terrorist' States by previous Governments?

They are definitely talking about UAE, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia; these are the three nations that are either confirmed customers of LAV 6.0 or have been kicking the tires. It may also include Iraq/Iraqi Kurdistan -- who we are, of course, currently training and arming.

UAE, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are not currently threats to Israel -- none share a border with Israel, all three share Israel's distrust of Iran, and all three nations are, in fact, currently fighting a nasty war in Yemen against Iranian allies. A war that may be spurring their interest in modern wheeled IFV's.

And as for Canada's terrorist-supporting adversaries in the region? Well, that's traditionally Iran, who is a close ally to Iraq. And as to what our long term policy goal is in Iraq/Iraqi Kurdistan? Well, I don't think anyone really knows. Is it to remove ISIS and cement Iranian influence from Afghanistan to Lebanon, influence backed by a Russian veto at the UN? That's not a good plan from Israel's perspective.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 15:24:19 by Ostrozac »

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #192 on: January 23, 2016, 15:52:46 »
I would add Jordan and Oman to the mix.  They are both VERY solid.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

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ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #193 on: January 23, 2016, 17:35:11 »
Yes; but what of their views on the Palestinian State, the West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon, Libya, and a few others?
 
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #194 on: January 23, 2016, 18:17:47 »
Yes; but what of their views on the Palestinian State, the West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon, Libya, and a few others?

The views of the Liberal Party? I'll take a stab at it. There are no votes or dollars in supporting (or even talking about) Palestine or Libya. Lebanon, on the other hand, is a potential gold-mine politically due to the diaspora presence in Canada and the numerous Canadians living in Lebanon (more Canadians live in Lebanon than in the Yukon or Nunavut), but it is also full of traps, particularly for politicians inexperienced in foreign affairs. Giving the Lebanese Army lots and lots of guns is already being done by the US and Saudi Arabia, and the collaborative/coalition nature of Lebanese politics makes working with their government very interesting, as Hezbollah has seats in parliament and members at the cabinet table.

I think the Liberals would like the Government of Canada to be more heavily and publicly involved in Lebanon, but they don't have any real ideas on how to do it.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #195 on: January 23, 2016, 21:54:51 »
>more Canadians live in Lebanon than in the Yukon or Nunavut

Canadians who were born in Canada or immigrated to Canada from countries other than Lebanon, or Lebanese holders of Canadian-passports-of-convenience?
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #196 on: January 24, 2016, 10:36:51 »
>more Canadians live in Lebanon than in the Yukon or Nunavut

Canadians who were born in Canada or immigrated to Canada from countries other than Lebanon, or Lebanese holders of Canadian-passports-of-convenience?

Conducting a census is illegal in Lebanon (another of their fun quirks!), so it's mostly guesswork from me, but I'd expect the Canadians in Lebanon have a similar breakdown to the ethnic Lebanese-Canadian community, which StatsCan places as half born in Canada, half born in Lebanon.

But it doesn't really matter what flavour of citizens they are -- it's a large community of Canadians that guarantees: first, Canadian politicians are interested in Lebanon because of votes and second, there is a military/security interest in Lebanon, because the next time they get into a war, there are thousands of our citizens caught in the middle of it (just like in 2006).

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #197 on: January 24, 2016, 11:45:56 »
Conducting a census is illegal in Lebanon (another of their fun quirks!),

Not illegal, just very difficult politically.

They had so much trouble with the last one carried out in that nick of the wood a little more than 2000 years ago.  You know, back there, when you have a census, everybody has to travel back to the town of their ancestors to register. And the PR flack you would get if, perchance, some poor pregnant women  gets there, can't find any room at the Motel and ends up giving birth in the parking garage at the back ... All hell would break loose.

 ;D

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #198 on: January 24, 2016, 11:46:31 »
Canadians in Lebanon who are Lebanese who came to Canada, got citizenship, and returned to Lebanon, are passport-of-convenience "tourists" and I'm not inclined to worry about their welfare.  If that describes most of the Canadians in Lebanon, then we certainly should not take any extraordinary measures that we are not taking to protect Canadians who are abroad anywhere else.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #199 on: January 24, 2016, 12:47:16 »


"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

ignoramus et ignorabimus