Author Topic: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18  (Read 21456 times)

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #75 on: October 05, 2018, 18:02:25 »
Best is when Chiefs support the Command TeamCommander concept,

I know it's unpopular, but there is only one Commander.  Warrant Officers of all ranks advise and enforce the policies that must be made by the commanders.  They can't abrogate this stuff.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2018, 18:15:45 »
I know it's unpopular, but there is only one Commander.  Warrant Officers of all ranks advise and enforce the policies that must be made by the commanders.  They can't abrogate this stuff.

Agree fully.  Those Sr. NCMs who get the ‘support the Commander’ bit of the relationship with their respective Commander are credits to the cadre, and worthy of being part of what could rightly be referred to as the ‘Command Team.’  My RSM never tried to influence others in any manner of ‘commanding/ordering,’ and I was quite happy to describe the CO-RSM relationship as a ‘Command Team.’  He was a pleasure to work with, and his rock-solid appreciation of ‘supported-supporting’ never allowed for any confusion of my assigned authority.  Have seen other situations where, through either laziness on the part of the CO to not ensure appropriate direction, or intentional action by the RSM to give directions to troops with the implication that it is with either the CO’s direction or permission, erode the integrity of Command and see troops bear the brunt of ill-considered or inappropriate direction.

Regards
G2G

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2018, 19:58:26 »
But see, some of these further beard restrictions being pushed by SMs were coming from their CO's as well. On the other hand, some COs just let their SMs do the discipline and dress thing as they please.

Times are changing and some COs are not happy and are trying to override the CDS.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline dapaterson

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2018, 20:00:44 »
Imagine if a RSM consulted with a CO, then issued direction on behalf of the CO that said, essentially, "The CANFORGEN gave CDS direction.  Follow the order as written, and don't be a jerk about it, and you'll be fine."

Or go with multiple memos, paperwork, and endless Beard parades.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2018, 21:02:03 »
But see, some of these further beard restrictions being pushed by SMs were coming from their CO's as well. On the other hand, some COs just let their SMs do the discipline and dress thing as they please.

Times are changing and some COs are not happy and are trying to override the CDS.

...and definitely not acceptable either, LM.  In my view, that is disloyal conduct, and not acceptable.  I certainly hope that those COs and/or RSM disseminating orders that run counter to the CDS' order are sorted out.

Regards
G2G

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2018, 22:45:14 »
...and definitely not acceptable either, LM.  In my view, that is disloyal conduct, and not acceptable.  I certainly hope that those COs and/or RSM disseminating orders that run counter to the CDS' order are sorted out.

Regards
G2G

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2018, 00:59:51 »
Imagine if a RSM consulted with a CO, then issued direction on behalf of the CO that said, essentially, "The CANFORGEN gave CDS direction.  Follow the order as written, and don't be a jerk about it, and you'll be fine."

Or go with multiple memos, paperwork, and endless Beard parades.

Buttons, bows, beards and buds, what else does a army need?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #82 on: October 06, 2018, 08:22:07 »
Imagine if a RSM consulted with a CO, then issued direction on behalf of the CO that said, essentially, "The CANFORGEN gave CDS direction.  Follow the order as written, and don't be a jerk about it, and you'll be fine."

Or go with multiple memos, paperwork, and endless Beard parades.

Which is part of that infamous Para 8 of 265...

CONTROL
8. Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates on any occasion, including the wear of accoutrements and alternative or optional items, subject to overall command direction.

However for years, "command direction" from the highest gets ignored/replaced and no one is held accountable.  Then, when rank and file types ignore the CO level direction (which could mean they're adhering to CDS, etc, level direction [BOOTFORGEN comes to mind], they are held to account.  Irony...something something lead by example something something.
Everything happens for a reason.

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #83 on: October 06, 2018, 08:45:05 »
Buttons, bows, beards and buds, what else does a army need?
Rucksacks, trucks, real modular fighting rigs, pistol replacement, compensation overhaul...

But at least we got weed and beards.

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #84 on: October 06, 2018, 12:47:48 »
I've always thought that if stuff flew in 1 CMBG, it was good enough for the rest of us.  ;D

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Offline Dimsum

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #85 on: October 06, 2018, 17:29:27 »
owever for years, "command direction" from the highest gets ignored/replaced and no one is held accountable.  Then, when rank and file types ignore the CO level direction (which could mean they're adhering to CDS, etc, level direction [BOOTFORGEN comes to mind], they are held to account.  Irony...something something lead by example something something.

I would like to see the first court martial of someone doing just that.  I'd even travel to be part of the peanut gallery.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #86 on: October 06, 2018, 18:21:41 »
I would like to see the first court martial of someone doing just that.  I'd even travel to be part of the peanut gallery.

I doubt it would make it that far;  I'd suspect the unit would want to keep punishments informal in nature or at a ST level.  I can't see a ULA saying "yes this charge makes sense" to something like someone not submitting a memo to grow a beard, when the CDS has authorized it.

My experience is that these "infractions" are handled at the unit/sub-unit level with things like extras, duties, etc or by misusing Remedial Measures.
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline comfortablynumb

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #87 on: October 06, 2018, 18:31:15 »
Honestly any command team that goes against CDS direction on something stupid like beards, should cease to be mbrs of said command team.

I see this the same as jacking up soldiers for not shaving that just spent weeks or months getting shot at, blown up etc when they come back to the safety of a major camp.

Sometimes I don't think the reduction in CWO is a bad thing. Thankfully for some of those out there, no one gives a frig about what I think.


 :2c:

Offline MJP

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #88 on: October 06, 2018, 18:39:34 »
Honestly any command team that goes against CDS direction on something stupid like beards, should cease to be mbrs of said command team.

I see this the same as jacking up soldiers for not shaving that just spent weeks or months getting shot at, blown up etc when they come back to the safety of a major camp.

Sometimes I don't think the reduction in CWO is a bad thing. Thankfully for some of those out there, no one gives a frig about what I think.


 :2c:

While I agree with you, almost every CWO posn that was cut was in the technical not command side of the house.  While some on this board will disagree, they were essentially considered to be doing Capt/Maj type staff work backed by experience or tech knowledge not held by those ranks typically.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #89 on: October 06, 2018, 18:45:26 »
I see this the same as jacking up soldiers for not shaving that just spent weeks or months getting shot at, blown up etc when they come back to the safety of a major camp.

Depends when the jacking up happened. My crew had a "fresh water" rule. If you were at a camp that had showers and running water, you shaved. As soon as ablutions were done with bottled water, shaving ceased. Once you were back to a fresh water camp, had 24 hours to shower, shave and just generally relax. If someone's being jacked up at the clearing bays on the way into KAF, that's unsat. If those dudes have been on KAF for 3 days after a mission and were just being lazy, that's a completely different circumstance. It's almost like there's some sort of common sense that's needed to applying rules.

Offline comfortablynumb

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2018, 18:48:52 »
While I agree with you, almost every CWO posn that was cut was in the technical not command side of the house.  While some on this board will disagree, they were essentially considered to be doing Capt/Maj type staff work backed by experience or tech knowledge not held by those ranks typically.

Seen. I guess I've seen some pretty poor examples at that rank despite how difficult it is to get there. Just me venting I suppose.

I guess my real frustration is that so many of us at different levels have spent years trying to get a mission done, often without proper manning, funding, or support. And yet there are people that have the time and energy to expend on stupid crap (often at the expense of those doing operational work) - it drives me nuts. Anways, I digress.

Offline cld617

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2018, 19:27:12 »
Lots of RSMs are trying to make BEARDFORGEN their own and still demand people to submit memos to grow a beard, and they can't shave every third day.

The CAFCWO and the CCPO caught wind and sent out a very scathing clarifying email to all of the Sergeants-Major across the service:

Quote
* Not required to submit a memo to their Chain of Command to cease shaving.
* Not required to advise their Chain of Command in any way that they are going to grow a beard.
* May cease shaving at any time, as so desired by the member.
* May resume shaving at any time, as so desired by the member. If the member wishes to grow their beard on the weekend and show up Monday with it, then shave on Tues, the start again Wednesday, then shave on Thurs, they may do so at their own discretion.
* No requirement for a formal process to cease shaving (meaning no 30 day inspections).
* There is no minimum length.

Interesting, Cold Lake finally caught up with this.

Except that the WCWO finished off his speech of all the direction necessary being in the CANFORGEN, with something to the effect of "people who wish to shave and regrow, shave and regrow will be dealt with individually." The ones who choose to test the limits as he put it. Nothing like being met with subtle threats from those who've already been told to take a step back on the MAKEITTHEFUCKUPFORGEN's.

Offline trooper142

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2018, 19:47:53 »


Interesting, Cold Lake finally caught up with this.

Except that the WCWO finished off his speech of all the direction necessary being in the CANFORGEN, with something to the effect of "people who wish to shave and regrow, shave and regrow will be dealt with individually." The ones who choose to test the limits as he put it. Nothing like being met with subtle threats from those who've already been told to take a step back on the MAKEITTHEFUCKUPFORGEN's.

Think you could post this email on the forum? Or get a copy of it somehow?

My CoC told me I was to ask permission to grow a beard, and upon permission I had 30 days to prove I could grow a beard, if not , no further attempts would be authorized.

Obviously upon reading your post, I became curious if this direction had reached my CoC and they are simply ignoring it,hoping the troops don't know any better, or it hasn't reached them yet, an they are still being ignorant to the actual CANFORGEN.

Any help would be appreciated

Offline runormal

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2018, 21:47:48 »
Why pick an unnecessary fight? I agree that it is flat out ridiculous, but IMO it's not worth fighting about. They wanted an email and a memo. I asked a friend for their memo and changed their name to my name.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 21:51:12 by runormal »

Offline trooper142

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2018, 23:24:26 »
Why pick an unnecessary fight? I agree that it is flat out ridiculous, but IMO it's not worth fighting about. They wanted an email and a memo. I asked a friend for their memo and changed their name to my name.

I don't see this as an unnecessary fight! The CoC in some locations is actively defying the will and orders of the CDS. It may seem like a small issue with beards, but it is a symptom of a wider problem imo.

If you don't push back when the CoC is being unreasonable and, in this case, actively disobeying orders from higher, that sets the stage for further incursions.

Just my  :2c:

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2018, 23:35:14 »
I don't see this as an unnecessary fight! The CoC in some locations is actively defying the will and orders of the CDS. It may seem like a small issue with beards, but it is a symptom of a wider problem imo.

If you don't push back when the CoC is being unreasonable and, in this case, actively disobeying orders from higher, that sets the stage for further incursions.

Just my  :2c:

I agree with this which is why I usually refer to CANFORGENs as CANFORSUGENs (Canadian Forces Suggestions) as people seem to just make it up anyway. 

The thing that annoys me the most about these types is they will harp on stupid petty BS like this but then actively screw over there subordinates by not actually doing there jobs, like making sure routine administration, that when delayed costs people money and time, is actioned properly.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 01:49:22 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline trooper142

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #96 on: October 12, 2018, 00:58:27 »
I agree with this which is why I usually refer to CANFORGENs as CANFORSUGENs (Canadian Forces Suggestions) as people seem to just make it up anyway. 

The thing that annoys me the most about these types is they will harp on stupid petty BS like this but then actively screw over there subordinates by not actually doing there jobs, like making sure routine administration that when delayed, costs people money and time, is actioned properly.

Hit the nail on the head IMO. It is a sign of weak leadership at all levels when this type of thing is allowed to fester; from the Sgt/Junior officer level all the way to the command team level for not pushing back at these contradictory orders and directives; same thing is occurring with boot reimbursement.

 Credit to the CAFCWO for recognizing the problem children and sorting them out in short order! If only we had the email that was circulated so the troops could have some ammo when confronting their CoC. Further, if what was said about that Wing CWO is true and they are subtly threatening their troops, then shame on them; not deserving of leadership positions.

Keep the pressure up and things will continue to change for the better, don't let poor leadership bring you down; let it be an example of what not to do when you achieve a leadership position.

Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #97 on: October 12, 2018, 08:00:55 »
I'd like to see this beard email myself.

I have the email from the CFB Halifax Base Chief that states clearly:

Quote
CAF personnel may cease shaving at any time so desired by the member; additionally there is no requirement for a formal process to cease shaving. When a CAF member so chooses to grow a beard, the beard shall be trimmed as detailed above commencing on the first day; there is no longer a period where the beard can be grown out before trimming.

For example a member may choose to grow their beard out on Monday, decide to shave it all off on Tuesday, recommence growing on Wednesday, shave it off again on Thursday and so on at their discretion.

Beards, when grown, are to present a positive appearance; therefore patchy, exaggerated and other likewise unsightly beards may be ordered removed. When so ordered, this does not preclude a CAF member from making subsequent attempts. It is the responsibility of supervisors at all levels to ensure the standards for beards listed above are adhered to, regardless of the length of time the member has elected to grow a beard.

I could copy and paste the whole email, including the signature block, but I'm not sure that's appropriate. Is it?
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Offline trooper142

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #98 on: October 12, 2018, 08:18:57 »
I have the email from the CFB Halifax Base Chief that states clearly:

I could copy and paste the whole email, including the signature block, but I'm not sure that's appropriate. Is it?

I was hoping to have the original email from the CAFCWO! Adds ammunition to a members argument if they have today defend themselves with their chain!

We are already seeing different interpretations of this policy, regardless of clear direction from higher; and potential threats from a Wing CWO to his subordinates who decide to play by the rules exactly as stated.

But people are leaving the military because of the money, nothing to do with petty games played by people who are upset their military is changing, and they don't like it so they cling to the last bits of power they have in the hopes of stemming off the hoard of change . ::)

Offline kratz

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2018, 08:48:43 »
Quote from: Lumber

I could copy and paste the whole email, including the signature block, but I'm not sure that's appropriate. Is it?

Reply # 67 of the topic has the entire email. The only part removed was the signature block.
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