Author Topic: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance  (Read 5666 times)

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Offline AbdullahD

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2018, 00:12:31 »
I do not think lowering fitness standards is the correct way to go. I think integrating a "fit-to-fight" model would be best, a person can hire on for a specific role then spend 'x' amount of time of the work week in the gym. Once they are 'fit' they start bmq either how the reserves do it or full time. Now the harsh realization is some people who may really desire to be in the forces, be competent to do a specific job may need a year or more to get fit.. so have an addendum to the contract that time spent not bmq qualified and in the 'fit-to-fight' program only counts as half time.. so if you sign on for say four years.. but take two getting fit your in for 5 or so.

Also looking at pay specs for a lot of trades.. I do think pay raises are in order.. but i could be out to lunch here.

The culture and mentality I cant speak to, so I wont really.. but if it is as bad as some here lead me to believe by their posts.. then asking a person to take a pay cut or deal with drama and bs may not be worth it for them. Heck I'm 32 and I am very curious if I can handle the drama of bmq and military life..  or if it is just not worth it (no i am not looking to apply CN is taking care of me right now quite well and this last year I've been lazy so yeah lol just wanted to put a disclaimer on that).

A lot of the educated, skilled people the CAF needs to attract may not be interested due to perception and stereotypes in the CAF. Now a targeted advertising campaign, enforcement of a new culture (possibly) and a realization that north Americans are typically over weight and becoming fit doesnt happen over night needs to happen. Telling someone if they get fit (however long that takes), they can take a 5 grand pay cut and serve their country.. does not seem to be working.

I'd be in the CAF right now and not at CN if these things were implemented.. but I got the job offer at CN before I was ready for the CAF.. so i chose CN because i couldn't wait. Now i have a career and yea i want to get fit.. but now is it worth it?

This is my bias from my experience take as you will.
Abdullah

Ps I personally do not care about targeted recruiting regarding minorities, women etc. I think the best person should get the job, regardless of sex, race or religion.. so the minorities thing is a meh point to me but address the other issues and that gets addressed to, to an extent.

Offline Furniture

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2018, 07:16:47 »
One huge problem with reduced standards is how far do they go?

I'm a weather guy, but when I was in Afghanistan with D Bty they didn't ask whether I was "ok" when it came time to dig mortar pits, or hump ammo.

Does Met now qualify because we can't attract enough people? We are shot, and projected short next year. Maybe we need to lower standards, then we can fill trade with even more troops collecting a full salary, yet failing to do the expected jobs.

There is no good end to this, just damage control.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2018, 12:25:44 »
To my mind, the CAF's problem is not entry standards, but excessive training pre employment.  We need a cull to focus training to get pers out of the training system faster.  This means accepting lower initial skills for Ptes, and understanding the need for ongoing PD once in units.

Or, to quote a friend about his recent course, "It was a typical Army course, with two weeks of content crammed into four."
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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2018, 12:46:49 »
Sigs tried to do that with ACISS. It failed miserably as the line units couldn't dedicate time to teach skills that should have been mastered at a DP1 level. All we did was end up creating troops that had to be babysat at the units instead of being trusted that their training was sufficient to operate independently.

Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2018, 12:52:03 »
The reality for this new cyber trade is they can lower the fitness, deployment, whatever standards all they want.  Until they start paying their people commensurate to their skill level etc. they will always have issues hiring and retaining people.

Take a look at the MP’s.  They can’t keep up with attrition because a huge number realize getting paid 65-70k as a spec Cpl when they can go get paid 100k as a first class Constable (before overtime) without the military headache is too enticing.  That’s only 30-35k pay gap......in the cyber trades they think they can pay an NCM of any rank well under 100k when those guys can go make 150+ to start, to do private consulting etc and retain people?

I’m no expert and I could be wrong but I think NOTHING the military does short of paying those guys/girls a ton of money will retain them.

Offline Remius

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2018, 13:01:12 »
We need a more asymmetrical approach to it.  In house VOTs could get a few and create a core.  Sell the cyber stuff as a stepping stone into civy life for others.  Come do a VIE and get valuable real life experience.   Pay may be an issue but it can be mitigated with some creative stuff.  Preferential postings,  optional VOTs and interesting secondments etc

If cyber is that important then put it on par with SOF. 
Optio

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2018, 13:08:12 »
Let's be honest, folks coming right out of school trained in cyber defense are not making 150k to start. Those high paying jobs need experience. 5 years after working in cyber at DND, absolutely. But off the bat spec 1 Cpl is fine. Especially with the job security (ironclad unless you're a rapist), which is worth quite a bit in salary offsets.

Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2018, 13:12:35 »
Let's be honest, folks coming right out of school trained in cyber defense are not making 150k to start. Those high paying jobs need experience. 5 years after working in cyber at DND, absolutely. But off the bat spec 1 Cpl is fine. Especially with the job security (ironclad unless you're a rapist), which is worth quite a bit in salary offsets.

I agree with you....but the trade will have the same problems as the MP’s.  People join to get experience and courses with zero intention of staying for a career, meaning the CAF lacks experienced leadership in the trade as well as having to constantly pay to train new people.

So like I said, until the CAF makes pay competitive with civvie side opportunities, they will have huge problems retaining people in that trade as the pay gap for experienced cyber warfare specialists is just too massive for for say a Sgt with 10 years experience making less than 80k with spec.

Offline Remius

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2018, 13:17:22 »
Let's be honest, folks coming right out of school trained in cyber defense are not making 150k to start. Those high paying jobs need experience. 5 years after working in cyber at DND, absolutely. But off the bat spec 1 Cpl is fine. Especially with the job security (ironclad unless you're a rapist), which is worth quite a bit in salary offsets.

Yeah, that number seems to be in the lower range for CISOs (Chief information Security Officers).

Here is a site that shows the average starting salary to be around 42,000$ a year with 87,000 being the average in Canada.  150,000 is at the top end of the spectrum.

https://neuvoo.ca/salary/?job=cyber+security
Optio

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2018, 14:57:13 »
I agree with you....but the trade will have the same problems as the MP’s.  People join to get experience and courses with zero intention of staying for a career, meaning the CAF lacks experienced leadership in the trade as well as having to constantly pay to train new people.

So like I said, until the CAF makes pay competitive with civvie side opportunities, they will have huge problems retaining people in that trade as the pay gap for experienced cyber warfare specialists is just too massive for for say a Sgt with 10 years experience making less than 80k with spec.

I occasionally work with IT focused departments in government as clients. They know they'll never be able to compete with the private sector on pay.

However, they know that the millennial generation aren't all about 'working ourselves to death for cash' so are, instead, focusing on the impact that passionate public servants can have on the lives of citizens through designing  and implementing enhanced digital services. A good impact that is.

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Remius

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2018, 15:11:41 »
I occasionally work with IT focused departments in government as clients. They know they'll never be able to compete with the private sector on pay.

However, they know that the millennial generation aren't all about 'working ourselves to death for cash' so are, instead, focusing on the impact that passionate public servants can have on the lives of citizens through designing  and implementing enhanced digital services. A good impact that is.

Part of that is accepting that the 25-35 year career might be become (unless it hasn't already) the exception rather than the norm. So maybe a new model is needed to deal with that.
Optio

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2018, 17:10:34 »
I agree with you....but the trade will have the same problems as the MP’s.  People join to get experience and courses with zero intention of staying for a career, meaning the CAF lacks experienced leadership in the trade as well as having to constantly pay to train new people.

So like I said, until the CAF makes pay competitive with civvie side opportunities, they will have huge problems retaining people in that trade as the pay gap for experienced cyber warfare specialists is just too massive for for say a Sgt with 10 years experience making less than 80k with spec.

So make a cyber warfare specialist a civilian "contractor" job.  For cyber warfare the military only needs a seat at the table.  Perhaps at the head of the table but cyber is going to require a system that is more akin to the SAR job than with traditional warfare, where all the players sit together at a table.  Cybersecurity might rotate to who takes lead depending on the situation.  CSIS, RCMP, CAF etc...

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2018, 17:28:42 »
Does Met now qualify because we can't attract enough people? We are shot, and projected short next year. Maybe we need to lower standards, then we can fill trade with even more troops collecting a full salary, yet failing to do the expected jobs.

 :o  Maybe try giving people, like, Remedial Measures to help them correct deficiencies before going right to the firing squad solution?

 ;D
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2018, 19:01:09 »
I agree with you....but the trade will have the same problems as the MP’s.  People join to get experience and courses with zero intention of staying for a career, meaning the CAF lacks experienced leadership in the trade as well as having to constantly pay to train new people.

So like I said, until the CAF makes pay competitive with civvie side opportunities, they will have huge problems retaining people in that trade as the pay gap for experienced cyber warfare specialists is just too massive for for say a Sgt with 10 years experience making less than 80k with spec.

We need some long, hard decisions about what needs to be in a CAF uniform, and what does not.  PW handling and base / wing security (especially when deployed)?  Uniformed.  PMQ patch patrols?  Perhaps not so necessary.  I'd argue that the problem with MPs is that we badged them...
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Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2018, 19:26:11 »
I don't think there is a clear answer to the problems as everything I have read here is accurate and I've heard all of these reasons mentioned when mbr's come in for release appointments.  One of the big reasons I hear is that the CoC treats them like crap, lies to them and has an old school way of thinking.  The CDS can issue all the directives he wants and I like and agree completely with what he is doing but the problem is his Sr NCO's and Lt-Maj's are not always following his directives.  There are other things that people don't like either like all of the secondary duties. Most mbr's work extremely hard and they want to enjoy their time off, not do things like WASF or BDF or whatever you want to call it. Most HRA's, FSA, cooks etc didn't join to guard the base or stand in a field guarding a plane.  The would have applied to be an MP if that was the case.  Also hearing the line "that's what you signed up for" pisses me off to no end.  I know what I signed up for and don't need someone telling me.  Sorry for the rant but this stuff gets me worked up. 

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2018, 19:52:12 »
We need some long, hard decisions about what needs to be in a CAF uniform, and what does not.  PW handling and base / wing security (especially when deployed)?  Uniformed.  PMQ patch patrols?  Perhaps not so necessary.  I'd argue that the problem with MPs is that we badged them...
It almost sounds like we needed to do a complete defense review, digging into the empires and sacred cows to see if what they were doing was really needed.

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2018, 19:57:17 »
It almost sounds like we needed to do a complete defense review, digging into the empires and sacred cows to see if what they were doing was really needed.

Ooo! Ooo! A White Paper! We need a Wite Paper! That’ll sort it all out.  ::)
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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2018, 20:02:37 »
We need some long, hard decisions about what needs to be in a CAF uniform, and what does not.  PW handling and base / wing security (especially when deployed)?  Uniformed.  PMQ patch patrols?  Perhaps not so necessary.  I'd argue that the problem with MPs is that we badged them...
So...tell me.  When is it you think it was MP were "badged" then?   :pop:

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2018, 10:05:33 »
So make a cyber warfare specialist a civilian "contractor" job.  For cyber warfare the military only needs a seat at the table.  Perhaps at the head of the table but cyber is going to require a system that is more akin to the SAR job than with traditional warfare, where all the players sit together at a table.  Cybersecurity might rotate to who takes lead depending on the situation.  CSIS, RCMP, CAF etc...

Out of curiosity, are there legal considerations to cyber wrt policing actions vs out of country stuff?  Thinking like when we do fisheries patrols, the navy is basically just a carrier for the DFO officers, or other times where we do something similar for the RCMP doing some policing actions in Canadian TTW.

I.E. if someone is engaged in some kind of computer shenanigans inside Canada, that would be a domestic policing issue, but if it's a foreign power messing with Canadian IT, that's something else (with offensive Canadian cyberwarfare against another nation would be clearly in CAF).

Not really sure they exist, but almost need cyber ROE, or just simplify the legislation to consolidate it in one branch. Personally think that this should be best lead by a civilian geek squad that aren't restricted by the general requirements of the universality of service, and can instead get the biggest brains they can find and employ at whatever pay scale is suitable for that area.  No reason their overall direction couldn't fall under something like CEFCOM but if we're too structured it won't work. There are probably lots of people that could never get through basic that would be proud to be given a chance to serve their country in this kind of capacity if given the chance.

As an aside, don't think the CDS really said anything, and was just making the kind of pleasing noises without meaning that comes out of the talking heads at events like this. No disrespect meant, but have been around enough of these events now to know that the key speeches are for show, and if anything meaningful happens, it's at the sidelines over coffee. Unless there is a lot of work done and policies dropping to coincide with it (like the SSE) they are deliberately not saying anything new.

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2018, 10:39:38 »
So make a cyber warfare specialist a civilian "contractor" job.  For cyber warfare the military only needs a seat at the table.  Perhaps at the head of the table but cyber is going to require a system that is more akin to the SAR job than with traditional warfare, where all the players sit together at a table.  Cybersecurity might rotate to who takes lead depending on the situation.  CSIS, RCMP, CAF etc...

So what do we do if we need to order our civvy 'geek squad' to destroy enemy countries and people and things?
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Offline rmc_wannabe

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2018, 10:51:33 »
So make a cyber warfare specialist a civilian "contractor" job.  For cyber warfare the military only needs a seat at the table.  Perhaps at the head of the table but cyber is going to require a system that is more akin to the SAR job than with traditional warfare, where all the players sit together at a table.  Cybersecurity might rotate to who takes lead depending on the situation.  CSIS, RCMP, CAF etc...

D Cyber talked about this at last year's Cyber Symposium in Kingston.

We did this for ages in the Blue Force side. Defensive posture can be done by anyone on the Public payroll. Red Force, offensive Cyber is an act of war. Anyone other than a uniformed military member acting on behalf of a state actor would be considered a terrorist or criminal under LOAC.

Thus the needs for uniformed Cyber Operators.
"One of the most feared expressions in modern times is 'The computer is down.'"
 -Norman Ralph Augustine

Offline Underway

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2018, 15:41:56 »
D Cyber talked about this at last year's Cyber Symposium in Kingston.

We did this for ages in the Blue Force side. Defensive posture can be done by anyone on the Public payroll. Red Force, offensive Cyber is an act of war. Anyone other than a uniformed military member acting on behalf of a state actor would be considered a terrorist or criminal under LOAC.

Thus the needs for uniformed Cyber Operators.

I disagree.  Intelligence services can do this as well.  Also define offensive cyber.  Planting a virus?  Phishing? etc... if that's the case we have been at war with China and Russia for years.

Quote from: daftandbarmy
So what do we do if we need to order our civvy 'geek squad' to destroy enemy countries and people and things?

You tell them to.  There is no reason they can't be bound by similar standards in the application of cyber force.

Contractors (aka security companies aka mercenaries) with guns destroy things all the time in enemy countries.  It's not a stretch to do it with civilians.  It's not like the Russians are not contracting out to criminal groups or the Chinese don't have entire buildings full of civilian dressed cyber operators.  Not to mention civilian suited CSIS types can do plenty of damage to stuff should that be required.  There is an entire wing of the NSA who do this stuff.

Its the wild west out there.  The rules are still being written.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2018, 17:38:43 »
You tell them to.  There is no reason they can't be bound by similar standards in the application of cyber force.

But if we can't jack them up for not wearing their berets properly, what's the point :)
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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2018, 18:46:26 »
But if we can't jack them up for not wearing their berets properly, what's the point :)

More likely their carpal tunnel wrist guard is not proper issue.

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2018, 20:40:16 »
This thread seems to have turned to some people thinking that the CDS is mostly looking at cyber when considering making changes however, I've been told by a couple of higher ups that he is considering making changes to several trades.  He is looking at a lot of things that will help with retention. 
If you talk to some of the medical folks, they are already saying that most people are not being medically released in the last year.  The expression I've heard is "employable but not deployable".