Author Topic: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change  (Read 4605 times)

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2019, 23:00:15 »
Fighting Nature wont require tanks or artillery or bullets or even ships.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2019, 23:21:04 »
Quote
Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change

Church of Climate change.
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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2019, 02:49:07 »
Church of Climate change.

Well the climate is changing, in big and small ways, and we are seeing the effects of it and the military is having to deploy more. Senior CAF leadership saying that doesn’t mean they’re staking out a position on what’s causing it. Just that it’s here and causing more DOMOPS than we’re historically used to.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2019, 12:54:47 »
Well the climate is changing, in big and small ways, and we are seeing the effects of it and the military is having to deploy more. Senior CAF leadership saying that doesn’t mean they’re staking out a position on what’s causing it. Just that it’s here and causing more DOMOPS than we’re historically used to.


Not disagreeing the climate is changing but I think there's some discrepancy between how much is natural and how much is a result of human behavior. There's obviously a following out there who are ready to label everything climate change.

Hot/cold summer, above/below average snow.  Wet/dry summer. It reminded me of debating with a friend. God sent the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs--kind of impossible to disprove that :)

The CAF is deploying more to fight floods and fires. Is that because there's more of them happening or just because we weren't ordered to deploy to the other ones?

Quote
When you look at the 2015 numbers, the sheer size of the area burned is stunning. The total forest burned in 2015 (as of Aug. 17) is 3,004,848 hectares. That’s a larger area than the island of Sicily, Italy.

And in 2014, which was the worst fire season since 2007, 4,123,986 hectares burned, the equivalent of burning the entire country of Switzerland.


I think it could be argued the amount we deploy can also be policy driven and not just an indicator of climate change increasing disasters.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 13:23:17 by Jarnhamar »
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Online mariomike

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2019, 13:03:55 »
For reference to the discussion,

Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread 
https://navy.ca/forums/index.php?topic=32987.1050
118 pages.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 13:14:54 by mariomike »

Online Remius

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2019, 13:29:12 »

Not disagreeing the climate is changing but I think there's some discrepancy between how much is natural and how much is a result of human behavior. There's obviously a following out there who are ready to label everything climate change.

Hot/cold summer, above/below average snow.  Wet/dry summer. It reminded me of debating with a friend. God sent the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs--kind of impossible to disprove that :)

The CAF is deploying more to fight floods and fires. Is that because there's more of them happening or just because we weren't ordered to deploy to the other ones?
 

I think it could be argued the amount we deploy can also be policy driven and not just an indicator of climate change increasing disasters.

and the CDS made no mention of it being man made or what not.  Just that we are responding to more climate related incidents.  We've had two 100 year floods in two years here in the valley.  Might be a fluke or might be a trend.  There are more happening, it just so happens that local authorities are asking for help more often.  In 2017 the NCR and area waited too long and did not ask for help.  they were not taking that chance again this time and asked early. 
Optio

Offline Colin P

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2019, 14:54:42 »
Some will argue that the increase of forest fires is as much to do with the pine beetle and 100 years of fire suppression catching up to us.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2019, 14:56:14 »
and the CDS made no mention of it being man made or what not.  Just that we are responding to more climate related incidents. 


Yer right pardner he didn't.
I was quoting the title of the cbc piece. The CDS clearly said "climate-related events".


Quote
We've had two 100 year floods in two years here in the valley.  Might be a fluke or might be a trend.

Exactly.

Quote
There are more happening, it just so happens that local authorities are asking for help more often.


Im not trying to sound like a climate change denier, because I'm not, but the bc wild fires aren't a new thing. I haven't looked at the frequency of them by year and compared them yet.

I'm probably seeing things between the lines that aren't there but the story, to me, implied these events are happening at an alarming new rate so much so the CAF can't respond.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 15:13:54 by Jarnhamar »
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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2019, 15:25:08 »
Just throwing it out there, but I would love to see what the Emergency Preparedness Plans look like for these provinces first. How many of their surplus budgets have back stopped by cutting funding from conservation and disaster response? I can't help but feel that calling the CAF in has become the default COA when things get wet or catch fire.
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Offline OldTanker

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2019, 15:31:14 »
I can't speak to other provinces, but neither BC nor Alberta put anything like the necessary resources into emergency preparedness and response that they should. This is even worse at the municipal level. I suggest there is no, repeat no, municipality in Alberta or BC that puts the necessary resources into being prepared for a disaster, natural or man-made. Maybe, just maybe, Calgary might come close, but even they underfund their emergency program. It gets progressively worse the closer you get to the coast. So, once bad stuff happens, there is little recourse but to request federal support, and since other than DND, the federal government has pretty much NO capability to respond to a disaster (we have no equivalent of FEMA in the US), the CF is the default go-to. And its going to get worse, so either the CF is going to have to be prepared to respond on a more regular basis, or be prepared to say no. Let's see how that plays out.

Online Remius

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2019, 15:34:29 »
Just throwing it out there, but I would love to see what the Emergency Preparedness Plans look like for these provinces first. How many of their surplus budgets have back stopped by cutting funding from conservation and disaster response? I can't help but feel that calling the CAF in has become the default COA when things get wet or catch fire.

Possibly.  but as I mentioned, when we had a flood in 2017 the city here did everything it could not to call the CAF so much so they were in denial.  People basically fended for themselves.

This time they called in the CAF for help partly I think because of the backlash of the last one.
Optio

Offline QV

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2019, 15:39:41 »
The climate has been changing since the beginning of time, and it will continue to do so.  In recent decades there have been longer intervals between F5 tornados in the US, than in the past.  Is this change good?  There were a lot of temperature records set in 2010.  There are also a lot of temperature records that remain since the early 20th century.  So if some places have not had an extreme temperature swing in 80 or 90 years, is that good or bad?  Nothing new here.           

We need to be good stewards of the environment, but there has been a lot of dishonesty about climate change and it's being used to advance political agendas.     


 

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2019, 15:43:18 »
I suggest there is no, repeat no, municipality in Alberta or BC that puts the necessary resources into being prepared for a disaster, natural or man-made.

The City of Vancouver has Canada Task Force 1. HUSAR.
https://twitter.com/cantf1?lang=en

https://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/urban-search-and-rescue.aspx

The City of Calgary has Canada Task Force 2. HUSAR.
https://twitter.com/cantf2?lang=en

http://www.cantf2.com/

The City of Toronto also has a HUSAR unit. Canada Task Force 3. ( CAN - TF3 ).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_(CAN-TF3)_Heavy_Urban_Search_and_Rescue

https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/fire-services/training-and-technical-operations/toronto-husar.html
"Toronto HUSAR is an acronym for Heavy Urban Search And Rescue Team, which is a multi-service, multi-skilled, and multi-functional task force developed within the framework of existing response agencies such as the Toronto Police Service/Toronto Paramedic Services/Toronto Fire Service."
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 16:14:25 by mariomike »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2019, 16:37:09 »
The climate has been changing since the beginning of time, and it will continue to do so. 

….there has been a lot of dishonesty about climate change and it's being used to advance political agendas.   

This I agree with 100%.
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Offline OldTanker

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2019, 17:24:04 »
For Mario Mike. (I don't know how to post a quote from a previous post). The HUSAR teams are a good start and the three municipalities (and the provinces and feds who have provided support and funding) are to be congratulated. But these three teams, for the entire country, do not represent any sort of level of adequate preparation. I stand by my statement. We, collectively, are woefully prepared for a major disaster and the only significant mobile, deployable and self-contained response agency is the CF.

Offline Furniture

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2019, 17:32:45 »
You know I'm a CPC supporter and I'm not really that concerned about this being a veiled support of the LPC agenda. The CPC isn't really climate change deniers; they just see some different solutions to the problem.

What does concern me is that he's whining about a few domestic operations "stressing" out the CAF. It's true that we're under equipped for high end military operations albeit we're not badly equipped for light and medium weight ones. We're only understaffed at the sharp end because we're grossly overstaffed at the blunt end and as it is we're having troubles meeting recruiting quotas with the establishments that we have.

Let's face it, flood and fire fighting isn't rocket science; it's bull work which our military training and organization has and can easily adapt to.

That was true when we were facing nuclear disaster oriented aid to the civil power and is even more relevant today.

Canada gives DND around $25 billion per year. If we're really stressing out some units or elements for these type of operations then it's our own bloody fault. The CDS needs to get his own house in order before he start whining to the public like Oliver Twist: "Please, Sir. Can I have some more?".

 :worms:


Could it be that the type of people interested in war fighting aren't terribly interested in fighting floods and forest fires? We can make them do it once they are in, but can we keep them around when between training to fight first class opponents they spend what should be their summer leave fighting forest fires, and filling sandbags?

Does the budget size matter when the people clearly aren't interested in joining or staying? Perhaps the CDS is making it known the CAF is feeling a bit stretched so we can ramp down the pace of operations and give our deployers a break?



Online mariomike

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2019, 18:01:16 »
For Mario Mike. (I don't know how to post a quote from a previous post). The HUSAR teams are a good start and the three municipalities (and the provinces and feds who have provided support and funding) are to be congratulated. But these three teams, for the entire country, do not represent any sort of level of adequate preparation. I stand by my statement. We, collectively, are woefully prepared for a major disaster and the only significant mobile, deployable and self-contained response agency is the CF.

I agree with the high-lighted part, OldTanker.

HUSAR is what we've got. I wasn't a member, but I was permanent on the Mass Casualty ( MCI ) multi-patient buses after 1980, and was well aware of our limited surge capacity.

Since funding is provincial, I don't know how it works in Vancouver or Calgary.

The challenge we faced was our funding was based on the census population, not the business day commuter population. As a result,  there were always more people requiring service than the system was funded for.

Add things like the Raptors parade, Pride, Caribana, Pearson Airport and Union Station, general tourism, 18 live lanes on the 401, etc. etc , many of those visitors are from out of town. 

I'll leave the Climate Change debate for its 118-page super-thread. But, in terms of weather, because of the density , a major snow storm can paralyze this city.

I know NYC relies heavily on their National Guard units during snowstorms.

 :cheers:





« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 18:24:18 by mariomike »

Offline Colin P

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2019, 18:43:50 »
Stockpile more bridging, rafting and water treatment equipment at the various Reserve Combat Engineer units.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2019, 19:59:27 »
Quote from: QV
     

We need to be good stewards of the environment, but there has been a lot of dishonesty about climate change and it's being used to advance political agendas.   

This is exactly what I mean (but fail to articulate).
Climate is changing, some of it very well be man made. There's a lot of dogma about it and dishonesty for personal or political advantage.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2019, 20:05:33 »
I can't speak to other provinces, but neither BC nor Alberta put anything like the necessary resources into emergency preparedness and response that they should. This is even worse at the municipal level.

This is exactly what I noticed. My area had significant flooding a couple years ago. Residents and municipalities seemed wholy unprepared  for more flooding and seemed to do extremely little in the way of preparation.

Politics among the municipalities was dumbfounding.

People complained a lot the CAF could have helped a lot more if we were called out 3 weeks earlier and they were not wrong.

But if the CAF is going to be used as de-facto firefighters and flood responders then we need training and especially equipment. CAF members shouldn't be buying hip waders on their own because they don't want to stand in crap water and there's none in the system.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 20:39:27 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline OldTanker

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2019, 20:47:25 »
If the CF is going to be more committed to domestic operations in the future, perhaps there is some value in considering re-configuring Army units specifically for this role. For example, we could consider reconfiguring Militia Armour and Artillery units to engineering, logistical and medical units, something that would be sorely needed after a major disaster. And then equip them accordingly. We need to think of the CF role in a major disaster (the big earthquake on the West Coast for example) and not just relatively short-term flood and fire responses. Shades of the "snakes and ladders" days of the Reentry Columns of the 1960s I know, and heresy to an old tanker, but we need to face reality. The soldier in me understands the need to maintain a military capable of fighting, the taxpayer in me wonders what point there is in spending billions of dollars on something that can't protect us from an emerging threat. This probably shouldn't be the responsibility of the CF, but if not them, who? Suggestions cheerfully solicited.

Online mariomike

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2019, 21:25:55 »
This was the headline in 1954, after Hurricane Hazel.

To the best of my knowledge, 1954 and the 1999 ( snow-storm ) were the only times the army deployed in Toronto.

Looks like the 48th Highlanders (?) in one pic.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 21:44:14 by mariomike »

Offline FJAG

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2019, 21:48:58 »
If the CF is going to be more committed to domestic operations in the future, perhaps there is some value in considering re-configuring Army units specifically for this role. For example, we could consider reconfiguring Militia Armour and Artillery units to engineering, logistical and medical units, something that would be sorely needed after a major disaster. And then equip them accordingly. We need to think of the CF role in a major disaster (the big earthquake on the West Coast for example) and not just relatively short-term flood and fire responses. Shades of the "snakes and ladders" days of the Reentry Columns of the 1960s I know, and heresy to an old tanker, but we need to face reality. The soldier in me understands the need to maintain a military capable of fighting, the taxpayer in me wonders what point there is in spending billions of dollars on something that can't protect us from an emerging threat. This probably shouldn't be the responsibility of the CF, but if not them, who? Suggestions cheerfully solicited.

Sorry mate, I couldn't disagree more. Having briefly been part of the "snakes and ladder" crowd for a short period in the '60s I can attest to how thoroughly demoralizing that was. Luckily our officers basically ignored the mandate and kept us focused on our artillery role but we lost a lot of good NCOs and other folks who didn't want any part of that nonsense. I quoted Gen Simonds above about a military trained for major warfare can easily adapt to civil power roles. The opposite isn't true.

Dealing with disasters is a provincial matter. Federal legislation kicks in only when a "public welfare emergency" is of an extant "that results or may result in a danger to life or property, social disruption or a breakdown in the flow of essential goods, services or resources, so serious as to be a national emergency." Military involvement generally comes only to augment provincial authorities by way of aid to the civil power.

Climate change, while serious, is not on the scale of '60s style "imminent nuclear destruction". There is time for federal, provincial and local governments to get serious and address concerns at their respective levels and create the essential mechanisms and organizations to deal with those matters.

My personal opinion is that we shouldn't ignore the very real revival of the cold war that the government has identified in SSE, and for which we now keep forces deployed for in the Baltics, and reorganize and equip our reserves (especially armour, artillery, infantry, air defence artillery, engineers and service support units) to be an effective expansion (both depth and breadth) of our Regular Force. Aid to civil power should remain as a secondary or even tertiary capability on a stand by basis.

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2019, 21:49:40 »
Except for municipalities that face specific recurring likely risks and which should at least plan accordingly, I would not expect municipalities to put much into emergency preparedness.  While a province might face one major event per year, not every municipality will - centralize resources accordingly.  Where municipalities might be negligent in matters under their direct control is in management of infrastructure and land use practices.

Municipalities and provinces seem to be running out of funds but not out of things they want to buy.  (There is a constant stream of ideas for squeezing out a little more tax and fee revenue here in BC, particularly in the lower mainland.)  The federal government doesn't just provide access to people and equipment; it provides access to funding.  More frequent requests for these resources should be expected; but there will always be a need for something at which to point a finger other than "we didn't manage our forests/waterways/interfaces prudently".
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Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2019, 22:09:04 »
Climate change, while serious, is not on the scale of '60s style "imminent nuclear destruction".

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