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Offline Halifax Tar

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Changes to service medals announced
« on: January 08, 2020, 15:54:11 »
As part of Strong, Secure, Engaged, (SSE 7), the Government of Canada is modernizing the Canadian Armed Forces Honours and Awards system to ensure military members’ service to Canada is recognized in a more timely and appropriate manner.

See link for info:

https://ml-fd.caf-fac.ca/en/2020/01/36817?fbclid=IwAR3Z8Nzkfvesno5fG0fJzX-J6tVW56lIl_zHl1UrngU6WO6W51X8QJFFErQ
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2020, 17:37:40 »
And as follow-up/additional info...

CANFORGEN 001/20 CMP 001/20 061924Z JAN 20

MODIFICATION OF ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR SERVICE MEDALS UNCLASSIFIED

UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CANFORGEN 021/18
B. PC 2019-1220 TO PC 2019-1222 27AUG 2019
C. PC 2019-1392 TO PC 2019-1402 19DEC 2019
D. CANFORGEN 003/09 CMP 002/09 081950Z JAN 09
E. CANFORGEN 096/09 CMP 042/09 201315Z MAY 09

1.   AS PART OF CANADA S NEW DEFENCE POLICY QUOTE STRONG, SECURE, ENGAGED UNQUOTE, THERE IS AN INITIATIVE TO MODERNIZE THE OUVERSEAS SVC RECOGNITION FRAMEWORK TO MAKE SVC MEDALS MORE ACCESSIBLE AND FLEXIBLE TO ENSURE THE APPROPRIATE AND TIMELY RECOGNITION OF CAF MBRS FOR THEIR PARTICIPATION IN AND SP TO OPS

2.   THE MEASURES ANNOUNCED IN THIS MSG ARE FURTHER TO REF A AND CONSTITUTE THE SECOND PHASE OF THIS INITIATIVE

3.   ON THE RECOMMENDATION OF THE CDS IN CONSULTATION WITH AFC, THE GOVERNOR-IN-COUNCIL HAS APPROVED A MODIFICATION OF THE ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR CAMPAIGN AND SERVICE MEDALS AS FOLLOWS:

(A) THE TIME CRITERIA FOR CERTAIN CAMPAIGN AND SERVICE MEDALS IS AMENDED AS FOLLOWS FROM THE RESPECTIVE EFF DATE INDICATED. ALL TIME IS CUMULATIVE:

(1) GCS - SOUTH WEST ASIA FROM 30 DAYS TO 14 DAYS EFF 13 MAR 14

(2) GCS - EXPEDITION FROM 30 DAYS TO 14 DAYS EFF 5 OCT 14

(3) GSM - SOUTH WEST ASIA FOR CDN CIVILIANS THAT SERVE IN THE THEATRE OF OPS IN SP OF THE CAF FROM 30 DAYS TO 14 DAYS EFF 13 MAR 14

(4) GSM - SOUTH WEST ASIA FOR OP SP PROVIDED BY MIL PERS AND CDN CIVILIANS FROM OUTSIDE OF THE THEATRE OF OPS FROM 30 DAYS TO 21 DAYS EFF 13 MAR 14

(5) GSM - EXPEDITION FOR CDN CIVILIANS THAT SERVE IN THE THEATRE OF OPS IN SP OF THE CAF FROM 30 DAYS TO 14 DAYS EFF 5 OCT 14

(6) GSM - EXPEDITION FOR OP SP PROVIDED BY MIL PERS AND CDN CIVILIANS FROM OUTSIDE OF THE THEATRE OF OPS FROM 30 DAYS TO 21 DAYS EFF 5 OCT 14

(7) OSM - SOUTH WEST ASIA FROM 30 DAYS TO 21 DAYS EFF 13 MAR 14

(8 ) OSM - SIERRA LEONE FROM 30 DAYS TO 21 DAYS EFF 17 FEB 13

(9) OSM - HAITI FROM 30 DAYS TO 21 DAYS EFF 1 JUL 17

(10) OSM - SUDAN FROM 30 DAYS TO 21 DAYS EFF 30 JUL 16

(11) OSM - HUMANITAS FROM 30 DAYS TO 14 DAYS EFF 28 APR 15

(12) OSM - EXPEDITION FROM 30 DAYS TO 21 DAYS EFF 15 MAY 14

(B) PERS WHO HAVE ELIGIBLE SVC UNDER THE OLD CRITERIA BUT DID NOT MEET THE ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA, AND ALSO HAVE ELIGIBLE SVC UNDER THE NEW ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA, SHALL BE ALLOWED TO COMBINE ALL THE ELIGIBLE DAYS OF SERVICE TOWARDS THE NEW CRITERIA. ESSENTIALLY, ONE HAS TO SERVE AT LEAST ONE ELIGIBLE DAY UNDER THE NEW ELIGIBILITY TO BE ABLE TO CUMULATE ALL PAST ELIGIBLE SVC TOWARD THE SHORTER CRITERIA

(C) CRITERIA FOR THE FIRST ROTO BAR IS AMENDED FROM 180 DAYS AFTER ELIGIBILITY FOR THE INITIAL MEDAL TO A STANDARD TOTAL OF 210 DAYS OF ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE INCLUDING THE TIME USED TO EARN THE INITIAL MEDAL. ALL SUBSEQUENT ROTATION BARS WILL REQUIRE A FURTHER 180 DAYS ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE SINCE THE LAST BAR

(D) MBRS OF ALLIED FORCES AND CDN CITIZENS WHO ARE UNDER THE COMMAND AND CONTROL OF THE CAF WILL NOW BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE SSM FROM 29 APR 14 ONWARDS IF THEY OTHERWISE MEET THE CRITERIA FOR THE MEDAL AND RELATED BAR

(E) STAFF ASSISTANCE VISITS (SAVS), STAFF INSPECTION VISITS (SIVS), AND SPECIALIST VISITS WILL NOW QUALIFY FOR THE GCS, GSM, OSM, SSM AND CPSM. VISITS FOR THE CONDUCT OF LEADERSHIP, COMMAND, MORALE, ACADEMIC STUDIES, SURVEYS OR OTHER SIMILAR ADMINISTRATIVE ACTIVITIES REMAIN EXCLUDED FROM QUALIFICATION

4.   FULL CRITERIA AS WELL AS COMPLETE ELIGIBILITY LISTS MAY BE FOUND ON THE DH AND R WEB SITE AT https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/medals/medals-chart-index.html

5.   APPLICATIONS FOR ELIGIBLE PERS SHALL BE MADE IAW REFS D AND E

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2020, 18:56:36 »
So, someone with two flying deployments for Op IMPAt as long as one is 21 days or longer and the other one includes 14 or more days over days flying over Iraq/Syria should get both?

Offline Brasidas

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2020, 20:49:47 »
Last time that I looked into this to see which of my troops qualified for what, the big reference was     

From CANFORGEN 201/18: “THE GSM, OR BAR TO THE GSM, MAY ONLY BE AWARDED TO AN ELIGIBLE PERSON WHO IS IN AN ELIGIBLE LOCATION 180 DAYS OR MORE EITHER BEFORE OR AFTER THE DAY THEY QUALIFIED FOR THE GCS OR THEIR LATEST BAR TO THE GCS”   

My understanding is that this will still be in effect, such that if a mbr spends anywhere up to 179 days after qualifying for a GSM-EXP, then qualifies for a GCS-EXP, they can't qualify for a GSM-EXP for at least another 180 days after that.

Did I miss anything?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 20:52:37 by Brasidas »

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2020, 21:28:04 »
Do you have the full CANFORGEN 201/18?  In my example, it’s the GSM first then the GCS.

Edit: I read the CANFORGEN and I have a hard time making full sense of it.  We have guys who went over twice to IMPACT.  Let’s say:

A person deploys to Op IMPACT (Kuwait or Qatar) and meets eligibility criteria for GSM.  On a second tour, starting more than 180 days after returning from the first deployment, he flies over Iraq for more than 14 missions.  Could that person get both?

If not, could that person exchange his GSM for a GCS?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 21:42:01 by SupersonicMax »

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2020, 21:42:44 »
I dont see why we needed this change, or why the rotation bar wasn't changed as well. We already had an existing mechanism that the RCN used all the time, multiplicative service (each day counts for 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 days) so that they'd get a medal even though they spent 5 months transitting but only 30 days in the ops box.

If we're going to overhaul the system,  do it properly. Remove an arbitrary days requirement and tie it to a " honourably completed attach posting message". Finish your tour? Get a medal. Get sent home for drinking/bad performance/frat? No medal. Medical/compassionate considered honorable completion. Then there's no appendage waving about days in theatre, or people watching the calendar to try to squeak out a medal because they finished their TAV a week ago but are 5 random days short of the medal.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2020, 22:47:52 »
If we're going to overhaul the system,  do it properly. Remove an arbitrary days requirement and tie it to a " honourably completed attach posting message". Finish your tour? Get a medal. Get sent home for drinking/bad performance/frat? No medal. Medical/compassionate considered honorable completion. Then there's no appendage waving about days in theatre, or people watching the calendar to try to squeak out a medal because they finished their TAV a week ago but are 5 random days short of the medal.

Great idea  :nod:
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2020, 07:30:19 »
Do you have the full CANFORGEN 201/18?  In my example, it’s the GSM first then the GCS.

Edit: I read the CANFORGEN and I have a hard time making full sense of it.  We have guys who went over twice to IMPACT.  Let’s say:

A person deploys to Op IMPACT (Kuwait or Qatar) and meets eligibility criteria for GSM.  On a second tour, starting more than 180 days after returning from the first deployment, he flies over Iraq for more than 14 missions.  Could that person get both?

If not, could that person exchange his GSM for a GCS?

Based on an email exchange with the DH&R folks, the answer to both of your questions is yes.

However, after reading the latest CANFORGEN I can see folks (at all levels) getting confused about having to serve at least one day with the new criteria to count cumulative days.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2020, 11:48:00 »
I dont see why we needed this change, or why the rotation bar wasn't changed as well. We already had an existing mechanism that the RCN used all the time, multiplicative service (each day counts for 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 days) so that they'd get a medal even though they spent 5 months transitting but only 30 days in the ops box.

If we're going to overhaul the system,  do it properly. Remove an arbitrary days requirement and tie it to a " honourably completed attach posting message". Finish your tour? Get a medal. Get sent home for drinking/bad performance/frat? No medal. Medical/compassionate considered honorable completion. Then there's no appendage waving about days in theatre, or people watching the calendar to try to squeak out a medal because they finished their TAV a week ago but are 5 random days short of the medal.

There are hundreds of Reservists who were on Exercise Orien Special etc for FALLEX in the late 60s/70s who were in Europe with NATO who are not eligible for the SSM re days. Most were 100 days or so. Also in 1968 we received reinforcements from QOR of C and Cdn Guards to 2PPCLI as it was thought the balloon was going up.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2020, 12:31:10 »
My first thought about this was: 'Great idea. Good campaign service should be recognized in the right way.'

My next thought was: 'Good Lord. How many more 'war tourists' will the front line units have to suffer?'

That is all :)
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2020, 13:43:50 »
My first thought about this was: 'Great idea. Good campaign service should be recognized in the right way.'

My next thought was: 'Good Lord. How many more 'war tourists' will the front line units have to suffer?'

That is all :)

Yeah, no kidding, the staff visits we had from CJOC had zero value added, and they conveniently planned it for one of the nicer port visits we had scheduled (Barcelona?) with a bit of overlap on each end. The FLS folks also got the same tour medal, but at least they were working while jumping around each port.

Not sure how it works in the army/air force, but this is great for the folks that rotate through covering others off for their trip back home. It's all staggered, so over a 7 month trip there will be people gone for 4 or 5 months of it in drips and drabs, so a lot of the replacements came in for a few months to cover off a whole bunch of people with the same ticket/qual. Know a few people in shore postings that are gone 6+ months a year backfilling like this, but kind of a necessary evil when you leave the wall with usually the bare min of people required to cover the various positions with very little redundancy to fill the holes yourselves.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2020, 16:34:16 »
Do you have the full CANFORGEN 201/18? 

I don't see an amendment to 201/18 in 001/20 above, re: the yellow text...

CANFORGEN 201/18 CMP 099/18 281537Z NOV 18

ADDITION AND AMENDMENT OF QUALIFYING SERVICE - SERVICE MEDALS UNCLASSIFIED

UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CANFORGEN 003/09 CMP 002/09 081950Z JAN 09
B. CANFORGEN 096/09 CMP 042/09 201315Z MAY 09
C. CANFORGEN 072/10 CMP 033/10 261730Z MAR 10, PARA 1.F
D. CANFORGEN 079/17 CMP 042/17 241851Z APR 17, PARA 3.A
E. CANFORGEN 005/17 CMP 005/17 121754Z JAN 17, PARA 2.A (1)

1.   THE REGULATION FOR THE GCS AND GSM STATE QUOTE WHEN A PERSON MEETS THE CRITERIA FOR BOTH THE STAR OR ITS ROTATION BAR AND THE MEDAL OR ITS ROTATION BAR IN RESPECT OF THE SAME TYPE OF SVC OR IN THE SAME GEOGRAPHIC AREA WITHIN A PERIOD OF 180 DAYS, THE PERSON SHALL ONLY BE AWARDED THE STAR OR ITS ROTATION BAR UNQUOTE. THIS WAS ALSO EXPRESSED IN SIMPLER WORDS AT REF C. THE AIM OF THIS RULE, IAW THE CANADIAN HONOURS POLICY WHICH PRECLUDES DUAL RECOGNITION, IS TO ENSURE THAT INDIVIDUALS WILL NOT RECEIVE MORE THAN ONE AWARD WITHIN A 6 MONTH PERIOD. IN LIGHT OF NEW PATERNS OF DEPLOYMENTS, THE FOL INTERPRETATION HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THE CF HONOURS POLICY COMMITTEE AS IT APPLIES TO PERSONS WHO CREDIT TIME TOWARDS BOTH THE GCS AND GSM WITH THE SAME THEATRE RIBBON (EG. SOUTH-WEST ASIA OR EXPEDITION) QUOTE THE GSM, OR BAR TO THE GSM, MAY ONLY BE AWARDED TO AN ELIGIBLE PERSON WHO IS IN AN ELIGIBLE LOCATION 180 DAYS OR MORE EITHER BEFORE OR AFTER THE DAY THEY QUALIFIED FOR THE GCS OR THEIR LATEST BAR TO THE GCS UNQUOTE

2.   AFC HAS APPROVED THE ADDITION AND AMENDMENT OF THE FOL SVC TO THE ELIGIBILITY LISTS FOR CERTAIN SERVICE MEDALS AS FOLLOWS:

A.   OPERATIONAL SERVICE MEDAL-EXPEDITION(OSM-EXP):

(1) SERVICE OF MEMBERS OF THE DEFENCE TEAM DEPLOYED TO MALI IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF OP PRESENCE SINCE 1 JUN 18 (PROVIDED THE SERVICE IS NOT COUNTED TOWARDS THE MINUSMA MEDAL, THEREFORE EXCLUDING UN AND NSE PERSONNEL)

(2) SERVICE OF MEMBERS OF THE DEFENCE TEAM DEPLOYED TO BURKINA FASO IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF OP PRESENCE SINCE 1 JUN 18

B.   SPECIAL SERVICE MEDAL-NATO(SSM-NATO)

(1) REF D IS AMENDED TO ADD: MULTI NATIONAL DIVISION - NORTH EAST (MND-NE), ELBLAG, POLAND

(2) REF E IS AMENDED AS FOL: SERVICE OF CAF MEMBERS WHO DEPLOYED TO EASTERN OR CENTRAL EUROPE OR IN ICELAND, AS PART OF THE AIR TASK FORCE (ATF) OF OPERATION REASSURANCE, SINCE 29 APR 14

C.   SPECIAL SERVICE MEDAL-EXPEDITION(SSM-EXP):

(1) SERVICE OF CAF MEMBERS DEPLOYED TO ROYAL AIR FORCE WYTON, UK, AS FULL MOTION VIDEO (FMV) ANALYSTS IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF OP IMPACT, SINCE 15 JUN 17

(2) SERVICE OF CAF MEMBERS DEPLOYED TO SENEGAL IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF OP PRESENCE SINCE 1 JUN 18

3.   FULL CRITERIA AS WELL AS COMPLETE ELIGIBILITY LISTS MAY BE FOUND ON THE DH R WEB SITE AT http://HTTP://FORCES.GC.CA/EN/HONOURS-HISTORY-MEDALS-CHART/MEDALS-CHART-INDEX.PAGE
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 16:41:13 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2020, 16:43:29 »

However, after reading the latest CANFORGEN I can see folks (at all levels) getting confused about having to serve at least one day with the new criteria to count cumulative days.

001/20 only refers to cumulative days for the same medal/star though, there's no mention of the stuff detailed in 201/18...

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2020, 21:25:18 »
I spoke with the H&A Chief at MARLANT yesterday about this - he and I both did an OP CARIBE on MON a few years ago - we both got 22 days of service towards what was then a 30 day medal.  Looks like it's been dropped to 21 days....so...maybe I get an OSM-EXP?  So does he?   Interesting!

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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2020, 11:00:59 »
Yeah, no kidding, the staff visits we had from CJOC had zero value added, and they conveniently planned it for one of the nicer port visits we had scheduled (Barcelona?) with a bit of overlap on each end. The FLS folks also got the same tour medal, but at least they were working while jumping around each port.

The FLS folks work pretty hard to keep the ships supplied.  I have never been on FLS but I have done a few deployments at sea and I know they work long hours dealing local customs and chandlers to  keep your supply lines open and flowing.

CJOC on the other hand, I am convinced that they exist to employ GO/FOs and thier follow on supporting staff.  From a logistics standpoint all they do is complicate things.  I am not convinced the RCN requires CJOC to deploy.  IMHO is another level of bureaucracy forced upon us because.


Not sure how it works in the army/air force, but this is great for the folks that rotate through covering others off for their trip back home. It's all staggered, so over a 7 month trip there will be people gone for 4 or 5 months of it in drips and drabs, so a lot of the replacements came in for a few months to cover off a whole bunch of people with the same ticket/qual. Know a few people in shore postings that are gone 6+ months a year backfilling like this, but kind of a necessary evil when you leave the wall with usually the bare min of people required to cover the various positions with very little redundancy to fill the holes yourselves.

People were already able to qualify for these medals with accumulated days over time.  Having said that the last few ships to go, and us now;  HLTA will only be done during RAMP for the vast majority with smatterings else where for various reasons.  As well CJOC wont fund backfills anymore. 

As for the medals we are going to start looking like North Korean generals soon.  Nothing wrong with people earning medals but when the awarding far out weighs the experience gained I start to worry about the methodology behind it.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 11:03:34 by Halifax Tar »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2020, 11:18:27 »
As for the medals we are going to start looking like North Korean generals soon.  Nothing wrong with people earning medals but when the awarding far out weighs the experience gained I start to worry about the methodology behind it.

I assume that this is part of the H&A 'me too' movement. Anyone who joined after 2014, when we pulled out of AFG, will have few opportunities to amass any chest bling, so they look at their longer service comrades, point, and say 'me too!';)
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2020, 11:26:23 »
I assume that this is part of the H&A 'me too' movement. Anyone who joined after 2014, when we pulled out of AFG, will have few opportunities to amass any chest bling, so they look at their longer service comrades, point, and say 'me too!';)

I would agree that I suspect this stems from SPS when one must wear ribbons or medals.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2020, 12:16:36 »
How about instead of lowering days required for medals we work to adjust the financial benifits of deployments to work on favor of the Sailors and troops. 

We leaveing in the next week for 7 months. Our RA and HR are lower than my SDA.  Why not give the option to collector either or ? 

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2020, 12:29:46 »
How about instead of lowering days required for medals we work to adjust the financial benifits of deployments to work on favor of the Sailors and troops. 

We leaveing in the next week for 7 months. Our RA and HR are lower than my SDA.  Why not give the option to collector either or ?

Completely unrelated, have a safe trip buddy! Watch out for sirens (see what I did there?).
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2020, 12:50:04 »
Completely unrelated, have a safe trip buddy! Watch out for sirens (see what I did there?).

Lol well played. 
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2020, 13:06:15 »
The FLS folks work pretty hard to keep the ships supplied.  I have never been on FLS but I have done a few deployments at sea and I know they work long hours dealing local customs and chandlers to  keep your supply lines open and flowing.

CJOC on the other hand, I am convinced that they exist to employ GO/FOs and thier follow on supporting staff.  From a logistics standpoint all they do is complicate things.  I am not convinced the RCN requires CJOC to deploy.  IMHO is another level of bureaucracy forced upon us because.

Agree; we would have been hosed without FLS sorting out parts and whatnot getting through customs and sorting out other issues for us. We eventually had a pretty good working relationship with our FLS and made a huge difference. To be honest CJOC was just another layer of BS to get through, and mostly they were an additional complication adding extra lead time onto getting things sorted. They also added another layer onto the telephone game (two actually; there was also MCC) and our technical briefings to NATO got messed up everytime they tried to give it the 'strategic CJOC perspective'.

Can't believe they can simultaneously require HLTA and not fund backfills; does someone else run the RAMP now other than ship's staff? I had contracted a number of locals to get some repairs done, and we were also getting a major mission critical repair done with a big TAV. It was like a really busy SWP, and there were about 50 people working long days everyday we were there to get that sorted, on top of the normal foreign port duty watch. Without a backfill, there were a number of us that never would have been able to take HLTA.

Anyway, off topic, sorry.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2020, 13:15:51 »
Agree; we would have been hosed without FLS sorting out parts and whatnot getting through customs and sorting out other issues for us. We eventually had a pretty good working relationship with our FLS and made a huge difference. To be honest CJOC was just another layer of BS to get through, and mostly they were an additional complication adding extra lead time onto getting things sorted. They also added another layer onto the telephone game (two actually; there was also MCC) and our technical briefings to NATO got messed up everytime they tried to give it the 'strategic CJOC perspective'.

Can't believe they can simultaneously require HLTA and not fund backfills; does someone else run the RAMP now other than ship's staff? I had contracted a number of locals to get some repairs done, and we were also getting a major mission critical repair done with a big TAV. It was like a really busy SWP, and there were about 50 people working long days everyday we were there to get that sorted, on top of the normal foreign port duty watch. Without a backfill, there were a number of us that never would have been able to take HLTA.

Anyway, off topic, sorry.

I will PM you to try and lessen the derail I am also at fault for lol.  At my daughter's dance class.  Will send soon.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2020, 17:23:52 »
CJOC on the other hand, I am convinced that they exist to employ GO/FOs and thier follow on supporting staff.  From a logistics standpoint all they do is complicate things.  I am not convinced the RCN requires CJOC to deploy.  IMHO is another level of bureaucracy forced upon us because.

Agreed.  Luckily for us, we'd normally deploy under comd of one of our own Majors as the ATF Comd and they would be direct link to CJOC...meaning the skipper and crew could ignore the BS and focus on the mission(s).  I'd rather see the level of C2 they (tried) to do be left at the Air Div level.

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As for the medals we are going to start looking like North Korean generals soon.  Nothing wrong with people earning medals but when the awarding far out weighs the experience gained I start to worry about the methodology behind it.

When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.   Same goes for assessing/applying RA.   :2c:

« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 17:27:53 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline Quirky

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2020, 17:57:56 »
Not sure how it works in the army/air force, but this is great for the folks that rotate through covering others off for their trip back home.

I covered off for OP in 2011 for 15 days, not that this BLINGFORGEN backdates as far, but I don't deserve the same medal that folks got that were there for 6-8 months. Maybe this is a way appease those who have been in for 15 years and only have a CD - this is entirely due to posting circumstance at the time of deployments and nothing to do with individual performance. I could care less with how many pieces of flair I have when I retire and that doesn't reflect ones contribution during service.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2020, 18:34:11 »
When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.   Same goes for assessing/applying RA.   :2c:

With no disrespect to the fighter pilots you mention but this isnt/wasnt exactly flying  Hawker Typhoons across France, bombing Nazis a tree top level, getting raked with AAA and all the while watching for Messerschmidt's and Focke Wolf's to come screaming out of the sun.  Lets just try to keep some perspective.  I wonder do those on the ground begrudge the air crew and ground crews ? 

It seems to me we, the CAF, have been infected with a sort of "my service was more important than yours" affliction depending on your medals and what stories one can tell. 

We have always given the same campaign medals for all those partaking.  Just like those driving trucks far behind lines in WW2.  Someone has to fight and someone has to enable that fight.

During one of my first Remembrance days in uniform I met a vet and we shared a beer.  I asked about his service and he told me his job was to ferry/move/drive trucks around Ontario.  I didn't think his service less valuable.  Someone had to do that job. 
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