Author Topic: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC  (Read 5389 times)

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Offline shawn5o

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Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« on: October 08, 2020, 19:26:46 »
I don't know if this article belongs here but it's a stunner


Most military cadets say they've seen unwanted sexualized behaviour at college
Vast majority of students surveyed say they've avoided intervening in such incidents

Murray Brewster • CBC News • Posted: Oct 08, 2020 12:55 PM ET | Last Updated: 3 hours ago

Nearly seven in 10 Canadian military college students have witnessed or experienced "unwanted sexualized behaviours" in the past year, according to new research from Statistics Canada.

The StatsCan report, released today, also found that the vast majority of those students — 94 per cent of men and 91 per cent of women — reported choosing not to intervene in such incidents in the past because they didn't think the incidents were serious enough, or because they felt uncomfortable.

The military's campaign to stamp out sexual misconduct, Operation Honour, depends on members speaking up and reporting incidents when they see them.

The report conflicts with the results of a review conducted by an internal military panel almost four years ago. That review concluded that there was no culture of bullying and sexual misconduct at the Royal Military College of Canada, in Kingston, Ont.

More at https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/statistics-canada-military-cadets-sexual-assault-1.5755369


and from Global


Canadian military colleges have a sexual misconduct problem, new data suggests

By Amanda Connolly Global News
Posted October 8, 2020 10:44 am
 Updated October 8, 2020 11:05 am

Canadian military colleges appear to have a sexual misconduct problem, according to new data released Thursday by Statistics Canada.

The report found that 68 per cent of students at the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston, Ont., and the Royal Military College Saint-Jean in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., have either seen or been the victim of unwanted sexual behaviour during their time at the schools.

More at https://globalnews.ca/news/7385815/sexual-misconduct-canadian-military-colleges-statscan/

 :facepalm:
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 17:07:10 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Here is the link to the actual report:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2020001/article/00011-eng.htm

Whoa... I guess that whole OP HONOUR thing was pitched as an ‘elective’.
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Online SupersonicMax

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More than six times as many women (28%) as men (4.4%) were sexually assaulted during their time as CMC students.

More than a QUARTER of the women were sexually ASSAULTED!!!  That is beyond unacceptable!!

Offline Eye In The Sky

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More than six times as many women (28%) as men (4.4%) were sexually assaulted during their time as CMC students.

More than a QUARTER of the women were sexually ASSAULTED!!!  That is beyond unacceptable!!

It is not also unacceptable for the 4.4% of men who were sexually assaulted? 

Also of note...More than three-quarters of students did not take action when witnessing discrimination

These students are (1) CAF members and, supposedly, (2) are the 'future leaders' of the CAF?   :facepalm:

Not going to do your duty IAW QR & O, Vol 1, Ch 4, Art 4.02?   Then they should face administrative and/or disciplinary measures.  Full stop - no excuses of "but they're not trained yet" or any of that  :blah:.  They are Officers.  Stop calling them 'students'.

They are also subj to the CSD - start frickin' using it.  They are subj to RMs, ARs, other adminstrative tools.  Start frickin' using them.

If their conduct deficiency warrants, release them under the correct release item (1X, 2X, 5D/F).  If they've incurred Oblig service, recover the taxpayers monies.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 10:06:39 by Eye In The Sky »

Online MilEME09

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It is not also unacceptable for the 4.4% of men who were sexually assaulted? 

Also of note...More than three-quarters of students did not take action when witnessing discrimination

These students are (1) CAF members and, supposedly, (2) are the 'future leaders' of the CAF?   :facepalm:

Not going to do your duty IAW QR & O, Vol 1, Ch 4, Art 4.02?   Then they should face administrative and/or disciplinary measures.  Full stop - no excuses of "but they're not trained yet" or any of that  :blah:.  They are Officers.  Stop calling them 'students'.

They are also subj to the CSD - start frickin' using it.  They are subj to RMs, ARs, other adminstrative tools.  Start frickin' using them.

Agreed, Operation Honour is suppose to be a zero tolerance towards sexual misconduct. The fact that we haven't heard of charges and mass expulsion from RMC indicates to me a command culture that the members there do not believe complaints will be investigated seriously. Which is an even bigger problem, if someone in the CoC is turning a blind eye to this, they need to be removed, yesterday.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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More than six times as many women (28%) as men (4.4%) were sexually assaulted during their time as CMC students.

More than a QUARTER of the women were sexually ASSAULTED!!!  That is beyond unacceptable!!

.... or a good argument for extinguishing the institution - because we clearly can’t keep kids safe - and buy our post-secondary education from any one of a number of Great Canadian universities who can?
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Eye In The Sky

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because we clearly can’t keep kids safe

Is 'kids' an accurate definition/term?  I don't think so; they've all finished high school as a minimum, all of them can legally drive a car, most of them can likely vote.  And, they've all been assessed as 'suitable for service with a Commission'.

Young adults...I'd buy that. 

Offline AK

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While I wholeheartedly agree that these stats are unacceptable, as a female CMC graduate, I'm not surprised.  I certainly frequently addressed wandering hands with monotonous regularity and varying degrees of force.

The military colleges are a strange world where professional, academic, and social spheres not only overlap, they almost merge.  You have a very young population (some as young as 16) all contained in relatively close (coed) quarters.  As the higher reasoning centers of the brain are not fully developed until we are in our early 20s, this is a formula for trouble.  In my day, there was little "adult" oversight, especially after hours and stuff happened, particularly when alcohol was involved.  I don't know if the squadron commanders and the Snr NCOs are more present today, but I hope so.

I would be curious to see what the stats are at civilian universities in the mixed gender dorms.

I don't know what the answer is other than to keep hammering home the messages.  But I don't expect that we will ever completely eliminate the problem, either at the CMCs or the CAF at large.  Stupidity is infinite.

Cheers,

AK
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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I don't know what the answer is other than to keep hammering home the messages. 

I do.

They are Officers.  Stop calling them 'students'.

They are also subj to the CSD - start frickin' using it.  They are subj to RMs, ARs, other adminstrative tools.  Start frickin' using them.

If their conduct deficiency warrants, release them under the correct release item (1X, 2X, 5D/F).  If they've incurred Oblig service, recover the taxpayers monies.

You'd be surprised how many (some of them) young Officers at RMC, etc who will contain themselves once a few of their numbers are dealt with appropriately.  Adult choices come with adult consequences.

Offline Jarnhamar

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There seems to be a discrepancy as to what exactly zero tolerance means in the CAF.

We've seen it with sexual misconduct, I'm guessing we'll see the same with our "zero tolerance" for hateful conduct.

I think some of us are under the impression "zero tolerance" and "no place in the military for offenders!" means offenders will be released. In practice it's less of the case.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 12:39:07 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline rmc_wannabe

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I do.

You'd be surprised how many (some of them) young Officers at RMC, etc who will contain themselves once a few of their numbers are dealt with appropriately.  Adult choices come with adult consequences.

I wholeheartedly agree. Currently working at another CAF school here in Kingston with similar age ranges of candidates. Assurance that issues will be dealt with severity was a weak deterrent.  When the iron hand of the Administrative/Disciplinary measures came down hard on those who crossed the line... compliance was almost immediate.
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Offline AK

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I do.

You'd be surprised how many (some of them) young Officers at RMC, etc who will contain themselves once a few of their numbers are dealt with appropriately.  Adult choices come with adult consequences.

I agree completely.  This is the message that has to be "hammered" home and hopefully the numbers will improve.  But I cynically believe that the combination of alcohol, immaturity, and hormones will always produce some negative outcomes regardless of how well we indoctrinate.  Effective measures to address such stupidity will thin the herd.

Cheers,

AK

Offline QV

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I agree completely.  This is the message that has to be "hammered" home and hopefully the numbers will improve.  But I cynically believe that the combination of alcohol, immaturity, and hormones will always produce some negative outcomes regardless of how well we indoctrinate.  Effective measures to address such stupidity will thin the herd.

Cheers,

AK

Removing the alcohol from that equation would be one of the most effective mitigation measures.

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Removing the alcohol from that equation would be one of the most effective mitigation measures.

‘Mitigation’ being the key word in your proposal.

Should not the solution be based on core conduct, for which elimination of alcohol would not be viewed as a panacea To better behaviour?

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Removing the alcohol from that equation would be one of the most effective mitigation measures.

How? Alcohol is forbidden in the dorms, yet one time I had a full size keg in my room for a couple days, hiding under a blanket looking like an end table.

I suppose you could ban cadets from drinking AT ALL, and expel everyone who did it anyway in town at a bar or Queen's party, but then you'd have only 6 cadets left.
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You can either take active measures to curb and discourage alcohol use and abuse, or not.  If you think the latter is the better approach then don't complain when immature brains do immature acts whilst under the influence.
 



Offline Remius

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I’m torn on the Alcohol issue.

I worked for an organisation that forbade alcohol in the shacks.  But they could go out and drink.  Which they would and they would try to cram as much booze into themselves before closing.  Plenty of awol and drunk troops in the morning. 

They loosened the rules and let them behave like adults in the shacks.  Less awol to be sure and less issues as the it was confined to an area that could be better controlled.

Young people, alcohol and hormones will always be an issue.   Especially when they live restricted lives on other things and get to let looses every so often.  When they let loose they go to hard because they do t know when they’ll be able to do it again or they know it will be some time before they can.

I think severe consequences is a more effective way of dealing with it. Banning alcohol will just create more issues and rules to break which they will.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Removing the alcohol from that equation would be one of the most effective mitigation measures.

If they aren't legal age to drink, they shouldn't be and should face the music if they do.  The "old enough to serve, old enough to BE served" days have faded away...

If they are old enough to drink and they frig up, they should be held accountable if they do.  There's even a DAOD for that.  No need to reinvent the wheel, just roll the one that exits. 

Don't treat them like children to prevent an incident "under your watch";  you're just passing the buck to the next unit they go to.

Tell them the expected standard.  Enforce it.  Punish those accordingly who frig up.

It's possible it is just that simple.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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The core issue here is a DISCIPLINE one;  not to confuse discipline with punishment/disciplinary actions which can result from a lack of discipline.

On my Senior Leaders Course (now called ILP) back in '02, we discussed the (then) 4 main types of discipline in the military:

1.  Imposed discipline - example the indoc period at CFLRS.  THere is a timeline, and a goal, which is to get people to the #2 type.

2.  Group discipline - when members of the group start conforming to the way the group acts.  This is great *if* Comd sets a clear expected standard of conduct, and informs members of what will happen if they do not obey/follow the standard.  Key to this is for it to be monitored and guided by Leadership (NCOs, WOs, and Officers). 

3.  Habits and rituals - the next type (level), where people start doing things because "that's the way they are done".  Them simply become part of the routine.  Example, clearing a weapon when you pick it up, polishing your ankle boots before Remembrance Day.

and the final goal, the END STATE...

4. Self-discipline - doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, even if no one is watching.  You're going on a Remembrance Day parade 'back home', you'll be the only person there in uniform...you polish your boots and sort your DEUs out to the same standard as if you were parading with your unit and going to be inspected prior.

Sounds to me like something major is failing at places like RMC in types 1 and 2.  If you don't understand, or have a 'discipline goal' identified in your training and training establishment, well...

Maybe there is too much mentorship and leadership being conducted by "senior OCdts" or candidates...bring the leadership 'off the hanger floor' could be part of the solution?

Offline Remius

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Sounds to me like something major is failing at places like RMC in types 1 and 2.  If you don't understand, or have a 'discipline goal' identified in your training and training establishment, well...

Maybe there is too much mentorship and leadership being conducted by "senior OCdts" or candidates...bring the leadership 'off the hanger floor' could be part of the solution?

When I was recruiting over 10 years ago we would be accompanied by an RMC rep.  And a cadet or two as well.  It boggled my mind what the RMC rep was spewing.  Talking about the College Pillars and that the “military” pillar was not that important as cadets would get that in their trades training and after college.  He told us that they were trying to make the college more attractive to applicants by portraying as a normal university.

I could also get I to the varsity sports BS the college was recruiting for and the lowering of academic standards to get them in.

Not sure if it has changed since them but RMC recruiting and selection I believe has been taken out of CFRG I think.

They had priority issues back then.  Sounds like it hasn’t changed.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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What/who would the RCM *Rep* be?

I've been watching the CAF become the "civilitary" for a while now and think no good has, or will, come from it.  Thankfully, the worse it gets the closer I am to CRA...

Offline Halifax Tar

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How? Alcohol is forbidden in the dorms, yet one time I had a full size keg in my room for a couple days, hiding under a blanket looking like an end table.

I suppose you could ban cadets from drinking AT ALL, and expel everyone who did it anyway in town at a bar or Queen's party, but then you'd have only 6 cadets left.

I fail to see the problem... We over produce officers as it is.
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Offline Remius

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What/who would the RCM *Rep* be?

I've been watching the CAF become the "civilitary" for a while now and think no good has, or will, come from it.  Thankfully, the worse it gets the closer I am to CRA...

I forget his title. If I remember he was some sort of academic guidance advisor of some sort.   Was a civy.  We actually filed a complaint about what he was saying.  Our CO passed it on but I doubt it was taken seriously.
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Online MJP

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The core issue here is a DISCIPLINE one;  not to confuse discipline with punishment/disciplinary actions which can result from a lack of discipline.

On my Senior Leaders Course (now called ILP) back in '02, we discussed the (then) 4 main types of discipline in the military:

1.  Imposed discipline - example the indoc period at CFLRS.  THere is a timeline, and a goal, which is to get people to the #2 type.

2.  Group discipline - when members of the group start conforming to the way the group acts.  This is great *if* Comd sets a clear expected standard of conduct, and informs members of what will happen if they do not obey/follow the standard.  Key to this is for it to be monitored and guided by Leadership (NCOs, WOs, and Officers). 

3.  Habits and rituals - the next type (level), where people start doing things because "that's the way they are done".  Them simply become part of the routine.  Example, clearing a weapon when you pick it up, polishing your ankle boots before Remembrance Day.

and the final goal, the END STATE...

4. Self-discipline - doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, even if no one is watching.  You're going on a Remembrance Day parade 'back home', you'll be the only person there in uniform...you polish your boots and sort your DEUs out to the same standard as if you were parading with your unit and going to be inspected prior.

Sounds to me like something major is failing at places like RMC in types 1 and 2.  If you don't understand, or have a 'discipline goal' identified in your training and training establishment, well...

Maybe there is too much mentorship and leadership being conducted by "senior OCdts" or candidates...bring the leadership 'off the hanger floor' could be part of the solution?

I would argue the root issue is culture, one where people feel they can act in manner contrary to our ethos. Discipline both individual and group is only one piece of the pie and should not be confused with culture. Using discipline as forcing mechanism only gets you compliance, not the change that is need to stamp out such issues and have a inclusive culture were people are treated properly. 
Hope is not a valid COA