Author Topic: Dress and Deportment  (Read 46584 times)

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #225 on: July 21, 2019, 00:25:25 »
I don't think many would refuse a lawful order.

But, personal and professional pride is something inside you. Some have it. Some don't.

I agree. Drill, like it or not, is needed. A pilots checklist is a drill as is diving a submarine a drill as is attacking a defer position a drill.

Foot drill sets you up for success.
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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #226 on: July 21, 2019, 00:40:34 »
I agree. Drill, like it or not, is needed. A pilots checklist is a drill as is diving a submarine a drill as is attacking a defer position a drill.

Foot drill sets you up for success.

Nope, it does not.

Offline Remius

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #227 on: July 21, 2019, 00:56:47 »
 https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/the-importance-of-drill.html


So are we a capable and effective military right now? When were we?

If we are not it certainly shows in our drill. When we were did it also show in our drill?

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Offline gcclarke

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #228 on: July 21, 2019, 03:11:17 »
C'mon people, it's not the 17th century anymore. You don't conduct warfare by lining people up on the battlefield and moving towards the enemy in unison. Drill had it's time and its place as an actual useful skill, but that was then, this is now. It serves nothing more than a purely ceremonial function. Pomp and circumstance doesn't win wars.

I agree. Drill, like it or not, is needed. A pilots checklist is a drill as is diving a submarine a drill as is attacking a defer position a drill.

Foot drill sets you up for success.

That's not "drill". Or at least, it's not drill in the manner the term is commonly used in the military.  That's just "doing your job" or "training". If you're going to go around calling literally everything we do drill, then we could easily just toss out the "walking around in unison" part of drill and focus upon practicing solely the "drill" that actually helps us to do our jobs of defeating the enemy. Marching up and down the parade square doesn't do diddly squat to help you dive a sub or anything of the sort; instead it just takes up time that could otherwise devoted to actually practicing those skills.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #229 on: July 21, 2019, 07:34:19 »
It's not the 17th century anymore, correct.  Foot and rifle drill still have a purpose aside from the ceremonial aspect.

Basic training.  Not sure how many people here have taken civilians and trained them from scratch but drill is a very effective and cheap way to train people to (1) pay attention and react to words of command instantly and correctly (2) focus on detail (3) work as an individual that is also part of a team (4) improve physical fitness and (5) esprit de corps.

The same goes for kit and quarters.  If you are too ******' lazy or stupid to be able to manage a bed layout, what are the chances you'll be able to manage working on vehicles, or fixing complex RADARs, or whatever?  So, like drill has an actual purpose in it being taught...kit and quarters does as well.  Don't agree?  You've probably never trained recruits before and only have your own Basic experience to relate to.  Kit and quarters is the easiest teamwork exercise in the military if done right.

Part of the overall goal of these "petty" things in the military is to take people from the "imposed discipline" stage to the "self discipline" stage (doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, even if no one is watching);  I'm not pulling that out of my ***, that was a lecture from SLC back in 2002 (Imposed, Group, Habits and Rituals, Self Discipline)  They are effective, cheap ways for instructors to transform you from a greasy civie to a trained Recruit/OCdt/NCdt.  Drill isn't the only tool, but it is one and its worked for decades.  And yup, we're in the military.  Part of what we do is parades.  CofC Parades, Remembrance Day Parades, we even partake in Pride parades in this day and age. 

Ceremonies are part of the job a military does.  People complaining about doing parades once or twice a year should seriously consider if the military is what they want to do.  Ordered to a mess dinner once a year and it makes you want to punch holes in walls?  You should be thinking about a career change as well.  Those things are part of military life. 

We are becoming too weak, complacent and whiny about simple, simple things that are and always have been part of being in the Service. 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 07:39:17 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline gcclarke

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #230 on: July 21, 2019, 10:06:59 »
Sure, it might be useful in basic training, in order to give them... something that you can yell at them about. But there's a lot of things we do on basic training that we don't ever touch again once they graduate basic training, or perhaps never touch again once they're done their basic occupational training.

Why not make drill one of them?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #231 on: July 21, 2019, 10:10:09 »
Sure, it might be useful in basic training, in order to give them... something that you can yell at them about. But there's a lot of things we do on basic training that we don't ever touch again once they graduate basic training, or perhaps never touch again once they're done their basic occupational training.

Why not make drill one of them?

Because drill is part of being in the military.  The best place to teach it is basic, because it teaches more than just to "move on the 1, pause on the 2-3s".  It is a cheap effective way to start to teach things like discipline, attention to details, etc to NCM and Officer recruits.

Have you ever, even for a day or a week, taught recruits right off the street?? 
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #232 on: July 21, 2019, 10:37:09 »
🤦‍♂️ The best way for a group to move from point A to point B is en masse. Doing drill. Not looking unorganized and like amateurs. I wanted to avoid saying this but if you don’t want to do drill or object to it vehemently then find another line of work.
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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #233 on: July 21, 2019, 10:38:37 »
C'mon people, it's not the 17th century anymore. You don't conduct warfare by lining people up on the battlefield and moving towards the enemy in unison. Drill had it's time and its place as an actual useful skill, but that was then, this is now. It serves nothing more than a purely ceremonial function. Pomp and circumstance doesn't win wars.


No, well trained folks who react instinctively  to what they've been taught to do in situations when the pressure is on win wars.
I was a completely uncordinated,  totally insecure,  lump when I hit Cornwallis.  Couldn't/ wouldnt  play sports, or speak up for the life of me.  Drill took me from a bear-walking "WTF is that?" person, to being a confident ,coordinated man, who pretty much never self doubted himself again. I spent most of my career working in various Arty CP's and enjoyed a lifetime of physical activities from what I learned about myself because of drill and/or repetition.
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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #234 on: July 21, 2019, 10:45:49 »
(5) esprit de corps.

Yes. That is what it meant for me.

Drill gave me a sense of pride in myself, and the organization. I am still thankful for what our NCOs taught me. Not just drill, but a lot of things.

Offline ballz

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #235 on: July 21, 2019, 10:53:28 »
C'mon people, it's not the 17th century anymore. You don't conduct warfare by lining people up on the battlefield and moving towards the enemy in unison. Drill had it's time and its place as an actual useful skill, but that was then, this is now. It serves nothing more than a purely ceremonial function. Pomp and circumstance doesn't win wars.

I find this thread nauseating, but just thought I would point out here in that yes, there is still utility in this. Just two years ago, I was practicing literally drill manouevres, left turns, wheels, and rolls, with a company's worth of LAVs. I used to apply the same thing as a Pl Comd to manouevre dismounted sections and LAVs. Common movement patterns that were deliberately given a distinct name so that in a pinch, you could spit out two words and everyone knew exactly what it meant, what they had to do, etc... instead of trying to explain it over the radio in sentences while there were a million other things going.

I suspect fighter jets must have something similar as they do fly in formations... and if we had any ships I can't imagine they would just be sailing through the ocean without any regard for where everyone else around them was.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #236 on: July 21, 2019, 11:00:33 »
I care about the CAF. It bothers me that we are know as the poorest, fattest, most unprofessional looking military in a first world country. 

Ok, hold on.  Who is saying this?  Have a bunch of foreign military folks outright said it, or is it just perception (warranted or not) of them doing that?  I've worked with a bunch of "first-world" militaries and I've learned that a) we all have our issues and b) we are our own worst critics of our issues. 

We as Canadians have this self-deprecating thing down too well.  In most circumstances it makes us sound humble and modest, which is a good thing, but when we have this mentality of shouting how crap we are from the rooftops, it makes us sound whiny (this also coming from a foreign officer I worked with). 
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #237 on: July 21, 2019, 11:07:43 »
... and if we had any ships I can't imagine they would just be sailing through the ocean without any regard for where everyone else around them was.

We do have that, Ballz. We, in fact, have a whole set of pubs that teach us the various movements and duties expected of us when sailing in formed groups. It's called fleet manoeuvering, and we practice the most common ones (formations 1 through 12, reversing from the rear, turns and wheels, angled formations and search turns) all the time in what we call "Officer-of-the-watch manoeuvers" so they become second nature.

And yes, it is like drill movements but with ships and you can tell from the vocabulary used that its fundamentals came from marching drill somehow.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #238 on: July 21, 2019, 11:18:21 »
We do have that, Ballz. We, in fact, have a whole set of pubs that teach us the various movements and duties expected of us when sailing in formed groups. It's called fleet manoeuvering, and we practice the most common ones (formations 1 through 12, reversing from the rear, turns and wheels, angled formations and search turns) all the time in what we call "Officer-of-the-watch manoeuvers" so they become second nature.

And yes, it is like drill movements but with ships and you can tell from the vocabulary used that its fundamentals came from marching drill somehow.

I can't speak for the Fighter community, but the LRP community also has many "drill-like" procedures so we can do specific things at specific times in a specific order in the event we are under EMCON, as an example, and have to communicate with an aircraft that is replacing us.  These are extremely important from a tactical AND safety-of-flight perspective.  We have drills (procedures, checklists, CMIs)  on the aircraft for what to do if say, there is smoke in the cabin or flight deck or certain indicators are presenting on the RADAR system...stuff like that.

I don't want to be teaching someone the basics of the importance of why they need to 'react to the word of command' during a cabin fire on flight training.  I want them to have the discipline before they put a flight suit on. 

That trg has to start somewhere (Basic) and should be done using a very simple, cost effective and easy to monitor/assess method, and performed primarily by NCOs.  Kit and quarters and drill have been used for this, extremely successfully, for decades upon decades.  Why fix something that isn't broke?
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #239 on: July 21, 2019, 11:20:48 »
Quote from: Oldgateboatdriver
We, in fact, have a whole set of pubs that teach us the various movements and duties expected of us when sailing in formed groups. It's called fleet manoeuvering, and we practice the most common ones (formations 1 through 12, reversing from the rear, turns and wheels, angled formations and search turns) all the time in what we call "Officer-of-the-watch manoeuvers" so they become second nature.

That sounds pretty awesome but why do we do that? Is is like an infantry section or platoon adopting different formations on the move where the ships are adopting to different formations against threats or protecting different ships?
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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #240 on: July 21, 2019, 11:30:21 »
That sounds pretty awesome but why do we do that? Is is like an infantry section or platoon adopting different formations on the move where the ships are adopting to different formations against threats or protecting different ships?

Yes-ish; there's a tactical element to that (as you said) but also a training element.  There is lots of math involved in those manoeuvres, and some of the "movements" orders (ie. speed changes) do have to be second-nature.  Fun fact:  Any picture you see of ships that are in close-ish proximity (so all photo ops, replenishment at sea, whatever) they're actually doing manoeuvres.

It's been a long time since I've done any of that, but part of the training element is recognizing when something isn't looking right and then correcting.  So say you're supposed to be moving from here to there and another ship is supposed to be ending up 45 degrees from you, so you're supposed to see certain aspects of her during the manoeuvre.  If that isn't what you're seeing, what is going on and what do you do to correct it?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 11:35:23 by Dimsum »
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Offline gcclarke

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #241 on: July 21, 2019, 11:30:42 »
🤦‍♂️ The best way for a group to move from point A to point B is en masse. Doing drill. Not looking unorganized and like amateurs. I wanted to avoid saying this but if you don’t want to do drill or object to it vehemently then find another line of work.

Oh here we go, the "if you disagree with me then quit" comments. Real classy.

I can't speak for the Fighter community, but the LRP community also has many "drill-like" procedures so we can do specific things at specific times in a specific order in the event we are under EMCON, as an example, and have to communicate with an aircraft that is replacing us.  These are extremely important from a tactical AND safety-of-flight perspective.  We have drills (procedures, checklists, CMIs)  on the aircraft for what to do if say, there is smoke in the cabin or flight deck or certain indicators are presenting on the RADAR system...stuff like that.

I don't want to be teaching someone the basics of the importance of why they need to 'react to the word of command' during a cabin fire on flight training.  I want them to have the discipline before they put a flight suit on.   

Skip the "walking around in unison" part and start by teaching them to react to words of command when you start training them to react to in-flight emergencies, and you'll attain the same effect without wasting any time marching up and down the parade square.

We don't need to do this whole coordinated walking thing to pre-train people for the training we're going to give them. They'll pick it up just fine if we just give them the training. And if we spend more time on that actual occupational training and less time on the ceremonial stuff, it'll be more effective.

Although there's another candidate for activities which fill the requirements that everyone's stating they think we need drill for (reacting to commands, performing things in sequence when required, etc). Weapons training. More time with the C7, less time on the parade square and we'll be better off, and weapons handling unlike walking around in sequence is actually relevant to warfare in the 21st century.

Then when people graduate basic, they can move on to their occupational training, and work on other stuff: turning a bunch of LAVs in formation, coordinating ship's movements, whatever else it is. It's not like the skills are transferable; learning a right wheel on the march doesn't actually prepare someone to do any of those things, beyond the fundamental "do something when you're told to", which can be taught in better more useful ways without walking around.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #242 on: July 21, 2019, 11:33:52 »
And I'll ask you again.  Have you ever, even for a day or a week, actually conducted recruit training?  Yes/No.  I'm seriously asking;  I would say "no" at this point, but I'd like you to confirm.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 11:40:00 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #243 on: July 21, 2019, 11:35:12 »
Real classy yes. You ignored the first part. Good job.

It seems you’ve made your mind up.

I beg to differ. Drill is a required skill in any armed force. Disagree if you must.

Good day sir.
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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #244 on: July 21, 2019, 11:39:21 »
Speaking only for myself as a wet behind the ears recruit, I believe drill aided in discipline by instilling habits of precision and response to the NCO’s orders.

Offline gcclarke

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #245 on: July 21, 2019, 12:22:41 »
And I'll ask you again.  Have you ever, even for a day or a week, actually conducted recruit training?  Yes/No.  I'm seriously asking;  I would say "no" at this point, but I'd like you to confirm.

Recruit training, no. Latter stages of training, yes. And having done some of those latter stages, I think that a large chunk of the stuffthat was done in recruit training was largely useless in prepping people for further training.
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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #246 on: July 21, 2019, 12:40:19 »
Drill has been a part of day-to-day life in the military for literally millennia.   

From the Roman Centurion forming ranks with shields up and out, to today's drill decks with marching, saluting and so forth.

Why is it done?

There's been a number of mentions in this thread of the why, however, from my perspective, the instilling of discipline will lead to self discipline.  Doing it right when no-one else is watching is where we want our troops to be.

Lackadaisical drill on a parade deck does not necessarily confer lackadaisical drills in operations or operational tasks, but I will note that the young LS who I sent to be a member of the Cenotaph guard several years ago did a damn fine job up there, and did a damn fine job on the ship following the exacting procedures required to load and maintain the CIWS properly. 

The MS who couldn't follow a clearly laid out procedure for torpedo loading, and then couldn't even safely hoist one, and who walked away from his role as safety supervisor of a CANTASS launch - well...his personal drill was pretty much junk as observed on a parade or two, and his failures to follow procedures ended up with him receiving an IC.

Does good drill on a parade deck directly correlate to correctly following procedures in operational tasks?  Not necessarily, but in those two circumstances, yes.

How did those two sailors do in terms of following the 265 for dress?  Pretty good in both cases. 

In my professional opinion, the difference was personal motivation - the LS had it in spades, and the MS lost his a long time ago.

That LS is now a PO2...and the MS is still a MS. 


My point?  I think I got lost on the way here, but unless you were on the ground at that parade, you don't know the exact reasons why the troops were on parade in CADPAT - should they have been in 1A's?  Arguably, yes.  Why were they in CADPAT?  You'd have to ask the ADJ/RSM of the unit that drove that parade.  Someone made that decision - and it was done long before the photo was taken and posted online. 


Is there value in drill?  Yes.  A 74 step torpedo loading procedure must be followed precisely or you will end up shearing the bridge crane locking pin on the Friday before weapons certs.  Folding a flag over a casket properly takes almost as many steps, and is a damned important thing to get correct as well.  How do you learn to do both of those properly?  It starts with a leader giving an order to be followed...from a drill manual...and ends with the soldier/sailor/zoomie becoming an expert at their role, understanding the whole task, and then eventually becoming that leader giving an order themselves.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #247 on: July 21, 2019, 12:54:20 »
Recruit training, no. Latter stages of training, yes. And having done some of those latter stages, I think that a large chunk of the stuffthat was done in recruit training was largely useless in prepping people for further training.

Recruit training and trades training are 2 different beasts.  You really see the difference when you work on BMQ and BMOQ more so than simply going thru that grinder as a candidate.

The need for basic teaching and assessment tools such as kit, quarters and drill are valid.  They lead to things like weapons handling, training and later, firing *in a controlled environment*.  Inspections are part of the toolkit and process...do you want someone to take live ammo and a weapon to a range, if they can't sort out a bed layout or if you say "lefttttttttttt.....turn!" and they constantly go to the right?  If they can't follow those directions...on a parade square...what makes me confident they will react properly if I say "unload!" on the range? 

Point - Basic is building blocks, that a large majority of people can get thru and learn the points;  discipline, teamwork and "don't quit".  That is the foundation that is being built.  If I tell you "I need to do 3 hours of drill with the course to get them up to speed"....do I need a fin code for that?  Nope.  But...I can make it (the extra drill) fit my main point with my recruits.  You have to perform strong as individuals to perform strong as a team. 

I'm with you on the "we shouldn't invest much time in drill/parades at operational units" etc, but having taught many Basic courses, and seeing the tools being used by staff such as drill and inspections to turn a group of 30 individuals into a team that starts to feed off their own success...well that is invaluable and pays off in dividends down the road during operations...where it REALLY counts.

But...the CAF really needs that foundation;  Basic does it and drill is more about the stuff I'm talking about, than it is the actual "stompy-stomp drill" part.  My  :2c:..

FWIW...the absolute longest parade practice I've ever seen was the Officer's graduation parade at CTC Gagetown.  They'd be on the parade square in front of the Battle Mall in August for a solid week, mounted and dismounted.  And that grad parade was usually extremely impressive. 
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #248 on: July 21, 2019, 13:34:20 »
Recruit training and trades training are 2 different beasts.  You really see the difference when you work on BMQ and BMOQ more so than simply going thru that grinder as a candidate.

The need for basic teaching and assessment tools such as kit, quarters and drill are valid.  They lead to things like weapons handling, training and later, firing *in a controlled environment*.  Inspections are part of the toolkit and process...do you want someone to take live ammo and a weapon to a range, if they can't sort out a bed layout or if you say "lefttttttttttt.....turn!" and they constantly go to the right?  If they can't follow those directions...on a parade square...what makes me confident they will react properly if I say "unload!" on the range? 

Point - Basic is building blocks, that a large majority of people can get thru and learn the points;  discipline, teamwork and "don't quit".  That is the foundation that is being built.  If I tell you "I need to do 3 hours of drill with the course to get them up to speed"....do I need a fin code for that?  Nope.  But...I can make it (the extra drill) fit my main point with my recruits.  You have to perform strong as individuals to perform strong as a team. 

I'm with you on the "we shouldn't invest much time in drill/parades at operational units" etc, but having taught many Basic courses, and seeing the tools being used by staff such as drill and inspections to turn a group of 30 individuals into a team that starts to feed off their own success...well that is invaluable and pays off in dividends down the road during operations...where it REALLY counts.

But...the CAF really needs that foundation;  Basic does it and drill is more about the stuff I'm talking about, than it is the actual "stompy-stomp drill" part.  My  :2c:..

FWIW...the absolute longest parade practice I've ever seen was the Officer's graduation parade at CTC Gagetown.  They'd be on the parade square in front of the Battle Mall in August for a solid week, mounted and dismounted.  And that grad parade was usually extremely impressive.

Aye,

And the psychological benefits of drill are well documented, scientifically.  Parade square drill is the basis that everything else is built off of.

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #249 on: July 21, 2019, 14:45:55 »
There are two related, but separate, arguments here. The first is the value of drill, dress and deportment and the characteristics of people with poor drill, dress and deportment.

On the first argument, the argument against it seems to come down to "it's 2019" and its a waste of valuable training time. The value of this stuff in 2019 has been explained by EITS and others very well. As for the wasted time, I have now been a student or staff at schools run by all elements ranging from Basic to journeyman and specialty courses, and units from Esquimalt to Gagetown and in between. On thing I have found to be true is just how much down time there is. Even on basic you will spend at least an hour a day waiting around for something to happen. Outside of the initial drill at basic and learning to teach it on PlQ, we spend so little time on this stuff that it doesn't really take up much time in the long run.

The second argument is more clear cut in my opinion. Regardless of whether or not you think it is useful, everyone knows they need to do it. If some does it poorly it tells me one of two things. Either the person is incapable of doing so (for a variety of reasons) or they don't have the self discipline to do so. I am more concerned with the second group. None of the possible reasons for not doing what you know has to be done result in a better soldier/sailor/airmen or demonstrate strong character. Personally, I don't care if you only do the minimum. Too many people in the CAF don't even do the minimum required for their jobs whether it is IBTS training, FORCE tests, sending a memo up the chain in a timely manner, providing an in depth PDR, etc.

One of the biggest challenges we face is instilling a culture of personal responsibility. It is easier to do that with boots and hair cuts both because it's cheap and the risks are virtually non existent. When people say things like "No one is going to die if I don't get a hair cut", they are 100% correct but they don't see the other side of the equation which is by the time people will die if you don't do something it's too late. We need you to take personal responsibility for yourself, then your teammates and ultimately your subordinates. The further up the chain you go, you become responsible for more and more. It doesn't get easier and if you can't master the level of self-discipline needed to get a haircut or put in some effort on the drill square, why should we trust you with people or equipment?