Author Topic: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval  (Read 37854 times)

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Offline Blue Max

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NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« on: September 20, 2005, 03:02:44 »
This new German torpedo, the Barracuda is supposedly faster Shkval, maneuverable and accurate unlike the Shkval and consequently is claimed to be able to intercept the Shkval and other torpedo.

NEWS FLASH - June 1st 2005- NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO!

http://www.deepangel.com/html/the_squall.html

German companies have developed a highly advanced new supercavitating torpedo known as the 'Barracuda'.

Built by Diehl BGT Defence, and Altas Elektronik the previously top secret Barracuda travels at over 800km/h, faster than the Shkval, and is fully guided, capable of twisting and turning in on its target at high speed!

Recently unveiled in May at IMDEX 2005 in Singapore the Barracuda has already undergone a whole range of successful tests. The designers of the prototype Barracuda boast that its capabilities are unmatched, claiming the design is 10 years ahead of American research. It is claimed the Barracuda is maneuverable enough even to home in on, and knock out an incoming Shkval!

You can read a full article about supercavitation, that includes a write up and pictures of the Barracuda, as well as pictures from the world of Deep Angel in the launch issue of 'Wunderwelt Wissen' magazine.

The PDF's of the article may be downloaded from the ProSieben TV site by clicking here.
  
A different render of the Barracuda and accompanying article is available from the same site by clicking here.
  
An article from German journal Europaeische Sicherheitit that includes another different render of the Barracuda in action is available by clicking here for the article, or here for the render.
As Robert Kulinsky of American Naval Undersea Warfare Center (NUWC) states in the article - we stand today where once aircraft designers stood after the first flight of the Wright Brothers... at the forefront of a oncoming revolution.

The Shkval (Squall) is the revolutionary new breed of torpedo in use by Russian Naval forces.

The Shkval is the first use of supercavitational technology in modern weapons and represents perhaps the largest leap forward in underwater warfare since the invention of the submarine itself.

Launched from Bars (Akula) and Antyey (Oscar) class submarines, Shkval torpedoes travel at over five times the speed of conventional torpedoes. Propelled forward by a rocket engine, there are no countermeasures or defenses which can stop the Shkval.

Research on developing a self propelled supercavitational projectile began in the early 1960's at the Ukrainian Institute of Hydromechanics. It took over a decade for the fundamental problems to be solved, during which time, the sound barrier is believed to have been first broken underwater. The research led to the construction of underwater supercavitating rifles for use by elite Russian Spetznaz troops, and in the mid 1970's to the creation of the world's first supercavitating torpedo.

First appearing in 1977, the original VA-111 Shkval is some 26 ft (8 m) long and is thought to have a range of around 5 miles (8 kms). Believed by some to be unguided, sources differ on whether the torpedo is nuclear capable. The Shkval is propelled forward by a solid rocket motor. Traveling at over 300 mph (500km/h) the Shkval is so fast that (despite being equipped with one) it does not even require a warhead! Its sheer mass and velocity is enough to sink an opposing submarine.

Development of the Shkval has continued through the 1980's and 1990's to the present day. Very little information is available about the Shkval II, the existence of which was made public by the Russian government in 1998. Rumours state a top speed of possibly 450+ mph (720 kph/h) and a vastly improved range, believed by some to be in the region of 60+ miles (100 km). The fact that the Shkval II is guided renders it vastly superior to the original Shkval. The Shkval II is thought to be able to supercavitate, then if need be slow down and reacquire its target, before speeding up and homing in for the kill. Yet newer techniques developed by Ukrainian scientists are believed to offer the possibility for high speed supercav guidance and maneuvering.

The Russian Navy has always pursued a different approach to the United States 'run silent, run deep' philosophy on submarine warfare. Placing more emphasis on speed rather than silence, it appears the Russians may have backed the winning horse.

Picture this scenario... A Los Angeles class and a Russian Akula Class submarine hunt each other. The Los Angeles is first to fire, releasing a conventional Mark 48 torpedo into the water. Upon launch of the Mark 48 a retaliatory VA-111 Shkval is fired down the trajectory of the incoming torpedo, straight at the Los Angeles class, forcing it to maneuver and thus cut the guidance wire to its own fish! Furthermore, the close range of modern submarine engagements would in all likelihood result in the Los Angeles class being incapable of maneuvering out of the path of the Shvkal in the fleeting few seconds between launch and impact.

Because of this ability the Shkval has often been classed as a defensive weapon, used to protect against the Russians inability to run as silent as opposing submarines. Such ideas, however, have been put to rest with the creation of the Shkval II and further guided variants.

With their longer ranger, the Shkval II and newer variants could potentially be launched at a distance of over 60 miles, and home in on their target, with no countermeasures available. As such, a single nuclear equipped Shkval could take out a carrier battle group whilst sitting tens of miles away.

Little is known of current Russian Shkval projects, other than the amazing potential which supercavitational projectiles hold. The capacity to create a supercavitating torpedo/rocket which would race towards a target underwater and then become airborne once nearing a coastline would render any kind of anti ballistic missile shield useless.

The Russian Navy is the primary user of the Shkval. A downgraded Shkval, the Shkval-E went to an international arms fairs in 1995, and both China, Iran and France have been known to have acquired limited numbers of Shkvals. The Russian press has claimed that the technology of the Shkval cannot be reverse-engineered and thus the Russian Navy is marketing the export variant aggressively.

The Shkval rocket torpedo represents the first step in the underwater revolution which is fast approaching. As funds pour into supercavitational research around the world it becomes more and more clear that control of supercavitation will soon equate to control of the seas.


 Other references:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001688.html

Does this not make the MK48 torpedo obsolete?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2005, 03:08:55 by Blue Max »
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2005, 05:20:20 »
Quote
Does this not make the MK48 torpedo obsolete?

If it made the MK48 obsolete why would the USN and other nations that use this torpedo and its successors continue to use it and not develop their own?
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Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2005, 06:05:29 »
The Ruskies developed a under water rocket torpedo a few moon's ago, we got a hold of one and has been passed on.
The sinking of the Kusrk is a suppostion of one these torps, missfiring and going off in the torpedo compartment,blowing out the bow of the Kursk and killing all on board.
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Offline AmmoTech90

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2005, 08:23:27 »
Does this not make the MK48 torpedo obsolete?

Disregarding the rumours about 60 mile ranges (possible if something along the lines of ASROC was used) which are unsupported, the fact that a Mk48 has a 50km range (Janes) and the Shvkal has a 8km range would make the Mk48 decidedly non-obsolete.  Janes does mention a Shvkal update of slightly increased speed and a search mode rather than a straight guidance.
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Offline Blue Max

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2005, 14:17:34 »
why would the USN and other nations that use this torpedo and its successors continue to use it and not develop their own?

The article at the beginning states that the Barracuda is a new GERMAN design just introduced. It is supposed to be 10yrs ahead of American research, and more capable then the Shkval, which the article goes on to describe because the Shval was the original weapon design for this class of torpedo.

"Built by Diehl BGT Defence, and Altas Elektronik the previously top secret Barracuda travels at over 800km/h, faster than the Shkval, and is fully guided, capable of twisting and turning in on its target at high speed!

Recently unveiled in May at IMDEX 2005 in Singapore the Barracuda has already undergone a whole range of successful tests. The designers of the prototype Barracuda boast that its capabilities are unmatched, claiming the design is 10 years ahead of American research."


AmmoTech, agreed. The MK48 probably outdistances this new class of weapon by a wide margin for now. But I was referring to the articles ascertion that the Barracuda could "It is claimed the Barracuda is maneuverable enough even to home in on, and knock out an incoming Shkval!"

If the Barracuda could home in and knock out a Shkval, then a MK48 probable is not a problem. Having made this assumption, can the MK48 find and intercept another incoming torpedo?
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2005, 15:02:36 »
There are some "science fiction" aspects to this story which put it on the edge. While supercavitating propellers were investigated in the 1960s and 70s (there was a set on the FHE400 Bras D'Or for instance) and we know torpedoes exist (and indeed there has been research on such oddities as supercavitating bullets), physics tells us that it takes a lot of energy to create the supercavitation "bubble". The Shkval used a pretty hefty rocket engine to sprint for 8km, which would indicate a really honking rocket engine would be needed to either increase speed or extend the range. Other energy sources might be possible, but they need to be stable and high density to work in a torpedo.

Submarine commanders would probably be a bit reluctant to incorporate a liquid fuelled rocket weapon on their boats (liquid fuels have a much greater energy density than solids), while a "horizontal ICBM" might be a tad impractical. As well, a launch catapult or other device will be needed to project the weapon away from the sub at sufficient speed to clear the sub before rocket ignition. It would seem there is a bit more to this than simply loading the torpedo on board.

Over all, I would be a little bit sceptical of these claims.
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Offline Blue Max

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2005, 01:23:58 »
One of the reported manufacturers Diehl BGT Defence GmbH & Co. KG, has this say about their Barracuda torpedo:

Barracuda is a technology demonstration program for a supercavitating underwater missile for defence against torpedoes and for engagement of submarines. It is equipped with a rocket motor, inertial reference unit/autopilot and a mobile, conus-shaped tip. The rocket motor provides Barracuda with an underwater speed of 360km/hr, the inertial reference unit/autopilot stabilizes the missile and the flexible nose cone provides steering. During underwater travel, Barracuda moves in an air bubble, the so-called cavitation bubble which greatly reduces the water resistance, thus enabling the high speed. Some test models of the underwater missile have been built, successfully demonstrating stable straight and curved path accuracy in several tests. Barracuda will be deployed from submarines and from surface vessels.

This is from their site at:
http://www.diehl-bgt-defence.de/index.php?id=550&L=1

How long would a torpedo technology demonstrator take to pass trials with the Kriegsmarine?

Six months, one year...
 
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Offline SHF

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2005, 14:58:15 »
Like a_ majoor I am also very skeptical and would ask the original post author to provide conventional proof of the weapon's existence or development.  Deep Angel appears to be a Sci Fi site.  The following is a quote from their site: "Deep Angel is the ultimate in high concept visions, presenting a stunningly accurate, never before seen portrayal of the future. Deep Angel's revolutionary big screen potential has led to the creation of the Deep Angel Screenplay. We are keen to hear from all interested parties who wish to be part in showcasing this technological revolution." 

  I have checked Janes and other sources and can find no information to support to the existence of this "new" German torpedo.  The actual Barracuda is the American MK-50 air launched torpedo entering service in 1992.  Prove otherwise from reputable sources and I will submit to the existence of this super cav barracuda; otherwise all tactical and technical data are subject to doubt and ridicule. 
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Offline geo

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2005, 16:17:02 »
Ouch!
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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2005, 16:32:38 »
Its a PC Game under development according to its site..... ::)
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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2005, 19:17:02 »
Its a PC Game under development according to its site..... ::)

This is a PC game.... what is next.... everything printed in comic books becomes reality.

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Offline Blue Max

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2005, 23:44:31 »
Ok, yes the original report was from a science fiction site, but if you follow the link that I provided to the Diehl BGT Defence GmbH & Co. KG site (a major arms manufacturer for the Bundesweher), you will see that they claim to have a concept demonstrator that is supposed to be superior to the Russian torpedo (definitely not science fiction) and ahead of known American research.

http://www.diehl-bgt-defence.de/index.php?id=550&L=1

Diehl Core Competences
http://www.diehl-bgt-defence.de/index.php?id=579&L=1

I believe Janes mostly reports on weapon systems that are operational or nearly there, I am only suggesting that this is an interesting concept to watch as it may change the way Naval warfare is fought.
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Offline Blue Max

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2005, 00:42:35 »
Here is a link to a paper written by Steven Ashley, explaining the technology of Super Cavitation, I have included some excerpts below:

http://www.diodon349.com/Kursk-Memorial/Warpdrive_underwater.htm

Although current funding levels for supercavitation research are said to be modest (around $50 million in the U.S., for example), the list of potential supercavitating weapons and naval vessels is extensive and altogether startling. It includes high-speed underwater bullets aimed at mines, homing torpedoes, boats - even low-flying aircraft and helicopters - from submerged gun-pods that look like the turrets on World War IIâ “era aerial bombers. Other possibilities include high-velocity antiship and antitorpedo torpedoes and "midrange unguided engagement breakers," which are larger weapons intended to force an end to a conflict between two submarines. Also envisioned are small, superfast surface craft as well as nuclear-capable subsea missiles designed to neutralize entire aircraft-carrier battle groups.

Some naval experts believe that supercavitating systems could alter the nature of undersea warfare, changing stealthy cat-and-mouse stalking contests between large submarines into something resembling aerial combat, featuring noisy high-speed dogfights among small, short-range "subfighters" shooting underwater bullets at one another after having been launched from giant "subcarriers."

Although supercavitation research in this country focused on high-speed propeller and hydrofoil development in the 1950s, the U.S. Navy subsequently opted to pursue other underwater technologies, particularly those related to stealth operations, rather than high-velocity capabilities. As a result, experts say, the U.S. Navy currently has no supercavitating weapons and is now trying to catch up with the Russian navy.

Another tactical problem for American battle groups; the Shkval does not need to be accurate if it is armed with a nuclear weapon. Of debate is whether a Russian sub close enough to launch a nuclear armed Shkval could itself survive. And now if reports are to be believed the Chinese are buying these torpedoes.

Other informed sources claim that the missile is in fact an offensive weapon designed to explode a higher-yield nuclear charge amid a carrier battle group, thereby taking out the entire armada. During a nuclear war, it could even be directed at a port or coastal land target.

"As there are no known countermeasures to such a weapon," states David Miller's April 1995 article "Supercavitation: Going to War in a Bubble," in Jane's Intelligence Review, "its deployment could have a significant effect on future maritime operations, both surface and subsurface, and could put Western naval forces at a considerable disadvantage."

Of equal worry is an August 1998 report that China purchased around 40 Shkval torpedoes from Kazakhstan, raising the possibility that Beijing could threaten American naval forces in a future confrontation in the Taiwan Strait. News from China (reportedly confirmed by U.S. Navy sources) that a Chinese submarine officer was on board the sunken Kursk has also raised alarms. He was there, they say, to observe the test of a new version of the Shkval/i]



Here is another informative site that explains what is know of the Russian Shkval super cavitation torpedo.

http://www.periscope.ucg.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/minetorp/torpedo/w0004768.shtml

Speed 230mph or 360kmh
Range 7,000m

U.S. intelligence experts call the nuclear-equipped Shkval a "revenge weapon," as it would destroy its target and the submarine that launched it. Russian sources have disagreed with this assessment, saying that the double-hull construction of Soviet-built submarines could withstand the resultant nuclear shockwave.


Also very interest is the claim by this site that the US Intelligence community blames the capture and conviction of Edmond Pope for espionage, on Canadian efforts to acquire/purchase a Shkval torpedo.
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Offline geo

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2005, 09:40:32 »
well.... if the chinese have the shkval..... good for them.... so long as you do not have to sail in the Sub that carries em on board.

As the Kursk has demonstrated - liquid propellant - slightly unstable.

Story goes that the Brits tested out a liquid propellant torpedo of their own a long time ago.... scared em!... "whups, not a good idea" - they went back to drawing board and a more conventional design (was researched on the Hist Chanel last year)
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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2005, 11:47:32 »
Errr... you are aware that both of our torpedos (Mk-46 and Mk-48) are liquid fuelled- specifically OTTO II, right?

Offline geo

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2005, 12:00:05 »
Oh!.... OK....
thought the Mk48s worked by some sort of steam or comprssed air system...
"propelled by a piston engine with twin, contra-rotating propellers in a pump jet or shrouded configuration. The engine uses a liquid monopropellant fuel"

Ah... OK... monopropellant vs a mixture that the shkval uses.

OK, ok.... will paint my face green & black & slink back into the bush where I belong
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Offline AmmoTech90

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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2005, 17:54:09 »
Errr... you are aware that both of our torpedos (Mk-46 and Mk-48) are liquid fuelled- specifically OTTO II, right?

There is quite a difference in between OTTO Fuel and a liquid rocket propellant.  Otto fuel will poison/kill you if you touch or breath it.  A liquid rocket propellant will probably poison you and have a good chance of ingniting if the there are any sort of storage problems.  That pretty much the reason Western SLBMs use a solid propellant.  Think of Otto fuel as a version of gasoline/kerosene, and a liquid propellant as something more akin to nitroglycerine.
Controlling a liquid propelled rocket motor requires much more hardware than a solid propellent motor.  You can get a bit more favourable energy densities, and you could in theory shut it off but the engineering and addition hardware must be taken into account as well.
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Re: NEW GERMAN SUPERCAV TORPEDO-800km/h, faster than the Shkval
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2005, 20:31:25 »
Quote
There is quite a difference in between OTTO Fuel and a liquid rocket propellant.

Agreed.