Author Topic: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]  (Read 530996 times)

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Offline Simian Turner

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2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« on: September 25, 2005, 02:12:31 »
I have some troops working for me that are interested in the University Training Plan (NCM). I have reviewed the relevant CFAOs with them and the 2006 Competition message.   I would like to put them in contact with some applicants or successful applicants who are now at university.  If you would be willing to assist them with advice or experiences please let me know. I am currently in sunny, cool Wainwright on BTE. :)

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2005, 16:49:53 »
Gunner98,

Here is the official site for the UTPNCM Association of Canada. I also noticed a Yahoo Chat Group linked to the site so you might be able to contact graduates/alumni of the program through that means.

http://utpncm.rmcclub.ca/Public/home_e.html

Nick

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2005, 00:06:10 »
Thanks, I had found the site previously but thought it might be designed exclusively for those attending RMC.  I will circulate to them to check out.
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Offline SweetNavyJustice

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 20:14:13 »
Good day all,

This is a question to all those who might be in the know to see if this can make sense. 

When getting selected to UTPNCM you keep being paid what your current salary is relative to your rank.  For example, I was a Master 4 when I was picked up, so I'm being paid at Master 4. 

In refering to the CF payscale, there is a row for officer cadets noted by the letter "D".

Canadian Forces Pay Scale
(Link updated May 2009 to CF site, please advise forum staff if link is broken due to changes in CF site structure.)

 This is supposed to be for UTPNCM individuals but this is not the scale that we are paid on.  When I made an enquiry, no one in the pay office really knew why this was the case "it's just the way it works". 

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have the opportunity to keep my salary and go to school gratis, but this policy has just always not made much sense. 

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 19:29:51 by Michael O'Leary »

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2006, 20:24:00 »
I suspect that once you are commissioned from the UTPNCM program (and the incentive level catches up to where you are now), then you are on those "D" officer pay scales.  You will note that the other scales are based on entry plan to commissioned ranks as well.

Offline SweetNavyJustice

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2006, 20:28:58 »
I agree that the other scales are for other entry plans, just as "D" is for UTPNCM.  I also agree that once I'm commissioned I will be paid at payscale "D" for 2lt and lt. 

My question is that while I'm an OCDT, why would I not be paid at the "D" scale for UTPNCM?

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2006, 20:46:18 »

CFAO 9-70 SPECIAL COMMISSIONING PLAN
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-70_e.asp

Quote
13. Pay. Members selected for commissioning retain vested rights under
QR&O 204.07 and 204.072. Normally, candidates will be paid in
accordance with QR&O 204.2112, however, due to the complexity of pay
issues, each case will be determined by Director General Compensation and
Benefits/Director Pay Policy and Development (DGCB/DPPD) prior to a
selection offer being made to ensure the selected pay scale is appropriate.

You have vested rights to your pay, i.e., it cannot be reduced. If you are an OCdt under the program long enough for the OCDT "D" scale incentives to catch up to your current rate of pay, then you will change to that pay scale.

As a MCpl Incentive 4 you're getting 4475 per month.
As an OCdt on the "D" Scale your next raise will be your tenth incentive, i.e., 10 years in that rank.

Get commissioned before that and you'll get a raise at 2Lt incentive 3, Lt incentive 1, or on promotion to Captain.


Offline dapaterson

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2006, 23:59:46 »
CBI 204.211 discusses pay scales.  Sub-paras 4 and 10 apply in your case:

(4) (Rate of pay - University Training Plan (Non-commissioned Members) and Special Commissioning Plan) A lieutenant or second lieutenant to whom the University Training Plan (Non-Commissioned Members) or Special Commissioning Plan applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer's rank and and pay increment as follows

if appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private, in pay level A of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction;
if appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of corporal or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction.
if commissioned directly to the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant from a non-commissioned member rank, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction

...

(10) (Officer Cadet - former non-commissioned member) An officer cadet to whom an officer entry plan at paragraghs (4), (6), (7) or (8) applies, who is appointed directly to that rank from a non-commissioned rank shall be paid.

if the member was a non-commissioned member of the Regular Force, at the rate of pay which, including any upward adjustments to the rates of pay determined under subparagraphs (i) and (ii) that may be established from time to time, and any upward adjustments resulting from the reallocation of the last military occupation in which the member served as a non-commissioned member to a higher trade group, is the greater of the rate of pay established for
the rank, pay increment, pay level and trade group held on the day immediately prior to the date of appointment to the rank of officer cadet, or
any higher pay increment to which the member would have become entitled had the member remained in the former rank, pay level and trade group as a non-commissioned member; and
if the member was a former Regular Force member who re-enrols or a member who transfers from the Reserve Force to the Regular Force, at the rate of pay in pay level "D" in Table "A" and pay increment as determined in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff.


(http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&Section=204.211&sidecat=21&Chapter=204#204.211)

And then see sub-para 11 as well, which states:

(11) (Limitations on pay increments) Subject to CBI 204.015 (Incentive Pay), the number of pay increment increases may not exceed the maximum number of pay increments for the applicable pay level and table to this instruction, and is further limited as follows:
...
b.  in the case of an officer cadet who is paid under pay level D in Table "A", to no pay increment increase regardless of time served in that rank;


All this to say:  You keep your pay and any future IPC increases; if you were put on pay table D you'd get no increases until comissioning.  Sounds like you've got the better deal.


This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline SweetNavyJustice

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2006, 00:04:17 »
thanks for everyone's help.  I appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me.

Offline Wookilar

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2006, 01:36:56 »
Ummm, now I realize that I'm currently failing calculus, but I am usually a fairly intelligent numpty when it comes to CBI's and CFAO's and such..... but, if I maintain my pay (and retain any/all IPC's) what purpose do 10 Incentives serve?

If I am reading it correctly, I would have had to release in order to be covered under Table "A" Pay level "D" and even then authorization has to come from the CDS? Doesn't that seem a little strange? And, reading further, it doesn't matter anyway, because under Table "A" Pay level "D" you are not intitled to any incentive increases  ???

Does anyone know why we have such a screwy (seemingly) system of pay incentives for OCdt's? Why have any incentives at all, let alone ten, if the rules state that there is no movement?

Same with 2Lt "B", 4 incentives, but you are only allowed one. Lt "C", 9 incentives, allowed 3.

And I'm going LOG why?
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Offline Paper2Pilot

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2006, 02:40:21 »
Hi everyone. I am currently a Cpl RMS Clerk waiting until the 06/07 competition comes out for UTPNCM... I was told it would be sometime this week but I haven't seen anything as of yet. I have met all of the selection requirements (2 University credits, leadership potential, support from my CO, French training, Cpl rank etc) and I have filled out all of the required paperwork... just waiting until I can submit it. What I would like to find is a Pilot who could give me a bit more information than the recruiting centre has about the trade before I go into the interview, so that I can be completely prepared. Plus, I want to find out more about the aircrew selection testing in Trenton - there isn't any info on the recruiting site. All they tell you is that you need 20/20 vision. I have that, but I am sure that the testing is intense, and I want to know what I am getting into so that I can prepare (if it is possible to prepare - at least physically) Any help would be appreciated.
"Like a fish, one should look for holes in the net" ~ Samoan

Offline kincanucks

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2006, 11:41:50 »
Did you try searching for aircrew selection or CFASC and did you review the Air Force threads?  Did you visit the CFASC website? Did you search for UTPNCM? Here is a freebie:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,44463.0.html

Also, you don't have to wait for the competition to open to submit your paperwork to the Chain of Command because once you have submitted it, it is up to them to make sure it gets over to the BPSO before the deadline and the way some COC work the sooner you submit the better off you will be.  Just make sure that you follow up to make sure that the COC is doing their job.

Note - If you know everything that is on the recruiting website about Pilot then you will be able to satisfactorily answer any question that the BPSO will ask you.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 11:44:57 by kincanucks »
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Offline Paper2Pilot

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2006, 18:28:25 »
Thank you, yes I will probably get through the BPSO interview based on the information given on the recruiting website... however... I am more concerned with hearing from an actual pilot and what his day-to-day job entails, and how hard it was to get through the testing. You are right, I could submit the paperwork to my COC right away, but I would be assuming that none of the forms on the BPSS website have changed.

Thank you for the link to the Air Force threads, they have been a bit of help - but I have noticed since joining this site that people seem to be more comfortable cutting and pasting dialogue from the Recruiting site instead of actually answering questions. Believe me, I am very excited about switching to the Pilot trade and I have done my research  :) The reason I am posting on this site now is to get some info straight from an actual Pilot. Must be a few on here?
"Like a fish, one should look for holes in the net" ~ Samoan

Offline ACS_Tech

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2006, 19:57:02 »
I'm only asking this because I've gotten conflicting answers from the PSO and the new UTPNCM 2007 competition message.  Do the University level OPME courses apply to the 2 course (ie 4 half course) requirement for the UTPNCM application?  I know it mentions it pretty clearly on the message, however I want to make sure I am not misreading anything.  I also don't want to go back to the PSO and say "HA! Told you so!", since I think that will do little to help my chances  ;D


Offline George Wallace

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2006, 20:01:38 »
  I know it mentions it pretty clearly on the message, however I want to make sure I am not misreading anything. 

Why are you wasting Bandwidth?  It clearly says in the Message, is what you say in your post, so that is it.  Final answer.  You are the weakest link.  Good bye!
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Offline MJP

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2006, 22:14:03 »
Hmm makes for an interesting change.  Is it for all OPMEs?  I wouldn't think that Intro to defence management and Military Law would qualify as they aren't really a course in the university sense.  Can you post the CANFORGEN?  I don't seem to be able to access it.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 09:32:38 by MJP »
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Offline Scone

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2006, 08:11:55 »
DCE001 and DCE002 do not count as they are PD courses and not Univeristy level. The other 4 will count. You can have them transferred to RMC as an interest only student and request a transcript for an official record with grades.

You can find out about all this by calling RMC DCS (Continuing Studies) and checking out the website
www.rmc.ca/academic/continuing

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« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 08:23:18 by muffin »
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Offline Shadow

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2006, 13:10:50 »
Same applies to civilian universities.  The UTPNCM selection board wants to see University courses completed... not OPME's
If your university grants you an equivalency credit, then it will reflect on your transcript and the PSO and UT board will be happy.  You can't show them a "P" on your MPRR and tell them it's a university course.
Most universities will grant credits for certain OPME's.  University of Ottawa for example, grants equivalencies for the 400 series OPMEs.
Hope this helps!
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Offline devilins

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2006, 10:22:51 »
HIE 208, POE 206, HIE 475 and PSE 402 all count towards the UTPNCM program.  They all have equivalency at Memorial University in NL and are worth half a credit since they are only one semester courses.  Most universities will accept them as well ie U of Manitoba and U of Ottawa.  These are the only OPMEs that count as the other two you can do in a week and pass through the condensed courses run on base.  They are a pain to use as you have to transfer them on your transcript thus becoming a student at RMC with a full fledged student number and not your OPME student number that starts with a PXXXX.  Once that is complete you then have to request an official transcript from RMC.  As for the board looking at them favorably I cant see why they would not as they are quite difficult, and are core requirements for BMAS, BA, BSc at RMC.  Plus you will have a shiny transcript with your marks on it to show them.  Hope this helps!!

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2006, 10:54:56 »
I was curious as to my situation should I get accepted to the UTPNCM program.  I am under the understanding that I would be lose my Sgt rank and become an OCdt.  Now the pay rate that I could expect is $4619 for OCdt incentive 10 on table A pay level D, but as it stands now I get Sgt Basic which is $4675.  So what happens with this situation?  Do I stay on the Sgt pay scale as you cannot go down in pay and stay at that incentive for 4 years, or do I go up to the SLt or Lt pay scales as that is what I get promoted to upon commissioning.

Thanks

Offline George Wallace

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2006, 11:01:10 »
The simple question first: You will not get paid at a higher rank level than you are.

Second: It depends on how you changed from Sgt to OCdt, as the rules are different in respect to "Vested Rights" in how you have changed Trades, etc.  That should have been laid out for you by the OR with the appropriate references to DAOD's, CFAO's, or QR&O's.  It would state on your message, what Pay Scale you will get.

My personal opinion, without full knowledge of your situation, nor Pay Background, is that you will keep your Sgt's Pay until such time that it will equal the Level of Officer's Rank Pay Scale that you have achieved.
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Offline Feral

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2006, 11:41:02 »
There is a huge issue going on with this right now.. I don't know if we're talking Reg or Reserve, and since I have no knowledge of how UTPNCM works for the reg guys, I'll leave it alone. What I do know is this: before, UTPNCM was not available to the reserve guys coming over to officer in the reg force. You took your cut in pay, down to OCdt level whatever (for me it was about $1250 a month gross), lost your rank and any leave entitlements etc etc. And of course you did this with a smile on your face because you were getting free education. A few intrepid individuals through the years decided that this wasn't right, that their reserve time should count the same as another person's reg time. Redresses went in, from my research they were all found for the grievor, and a load of backpay was issued. Someone up above took note of this and decided it wasn't right, and in 2005 ADM-HR(Mil) released Administrative Instruction 07/05, which basically means that from 2005 onwards if you join the regs as an officer from the NCM reserve world, you will be treated as a UTPNCM applicant. Details I'm not sure about but anyone who this matters to will look up the document and can read it for themselves. Anyone who joined in FY 06 is entered under the new rules, apparently applicants from FY 05 have been dealt with already (ie issuing back pay and pay rates based on prev service), and they are working backwards to FY 00 to deal with the rest of us. From what I've been told from a friend, once you get on the OCDT Pay level "D" scale, you don't go up in pay again until you get comissioned. He was a Sgt in the reserves, and with his previous service he got adjusted to a significant pay level with a load of backpay, after being dropped in rank to OCdt. This was determined from his previous service, basically adding up his class A/B/C time and working out what the reg equivalent would be.

I'm not a clerk and I have no RMS background, so take what I say with a grain of salt, especially since I'm giving second hand info. I think the reason there are 10 IPC levels to OCDT/D is so that they can cover all the possible rates of pay for UTPNCMs from privates up to sgts. I'm guessing the WOs and above are generally CFRs so they would go to their appropriate rank? Just a guess.

Anyways I hope that's not too confusing, I've been looking fairly deeply into this for the last year or so and I think I understand most of how it works. Again, don't take what I say as gospel, but this is what I've seen.

Offline Rhibwolf

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2006, 11:50:07 »
I'm not a clerk and I have no RMS background, so take what I say with a grain of salt, especially since I'm giving second hand info. I think the reason there are 10 IPC levels to OCDT/D is so that they can cover all the possible rates of pay for UTPNCMs from privates up to sgts. I'm guessing the WOs and above are generally CFRs so they would go to their appropriate rank?

Its been a while since I was a UT, and our pay issue was quite different than it is now, but this makes sense.  There was never any loss of pay, however, you just got stuck at your current NCM rate until you graduated, as there were no OCdts who made as much as Cpl.  My year got double pain, as we were all frozen in IPC for a few years afterwards, and I made 2888 for a long long time.  As for WO and above? we had plenty in the UT program.  Not all chiefs want to be commissioned without a degree. There are some who do it for the degree just as much for the rank.  Oddly, the most common reason I hear these days is "for the pension"  and not for the chance to be a Capt or Lt(N).  (just to waylay any questions on that, the pension is the same as everyone else's, but there is potential for the "best 5 yrs" to be higher in pay scale.)
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Offline Feral

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2006, 22:47:52 »
Well I'm on the list somewhere to get my backpay so once I've got first hand experience I'll post what happens to me.

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Re: 2005-2018 University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) [Merged]
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2007, 14:18:36 »
I was recently accepted into the UTPNCM program as a Land Logistics Officer.  My current unit can offer me no guidance on what happens after my change of appt to OCDT on 30 Apr.  I am trying to find out the official word on what cap badge I am authorized to wear, do I get the Log officer Cap badge or the Cornflake?


[Edit:  Gheeese!  If you are going officer, please learn to spell and ask a question.  Corrected your subject title to reflect your question.  No thanks necessary.  It is all part of the job.   ;D ]
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 20:15:49 by George Wallace »