Author Topic: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.  (Read 57748 times)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2006, 23:21:43 »
Don't forget the "stick to brief/debrief" ratio.  Fighter guys "rule" on that one... ;D

Offline Dizzy

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2006, 09:25:33 »
Just that most airlines require a minimum of 1000 hours

  If you're looking for an airline job after you complete your mandatory service - be prepared to slash your lifestyle. Most airlines have a starting salary that may make you baulk. Rumour has it lots of reg force pilots are turning down Air Canada because they don't feel like making half their current pay for the first year.
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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2006, 09:49:52 »
The best deal is staying A class reserve and flying full time for Air Canada ;)

Max

Offline J_Muir

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2006, 11:25:21 »
The best deal is staying A class reserve and flying full time for Air Canada ;)

Max

Wow, I had no idea you could do that here (I know you can in the US). Thanks for that information man!

Offline Moody

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2006, 11:42:34 »
  If you're looking for an airline job after you complete your mandatory service - be prepared to slash your lifestyle. Most airlines have a starting salary that may make you baulk. Rumour has it lots of reg force pilots are turning down Air Canada because they don't feel like making half their current pay for the first year.

Or less. ( I heard Jazz Pilots made in the 30-40K range to start; I might be wrong.) Not to mention, big red can and will lay you off if need be...

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2006, 11:58:53 »
Guys who want to pick up time explicitly to to go to the airlines should do a "business case" to determine if the lifestyle and financial factors play out the way you think you might them to in the future.  I know a lot of guys who are now top dog (senior guys who bid on "good go's" like A330/340 out of Toronto for Bejing, etc...) and the coin is pretty darned good.  It is also absolutely true that you take a not insignificant dip (plummet?) in pay in the early years of airline life (things like first officer on Dash-8 or CRJ, etc...)

If someone plans on finishing off the time they owe to the Queen at the end of their contract...nothing at all wrong with that.  If it's about money, there are other ways to make even more money than becoming an airborne bus driver...no effense to my AC buddies, but they tell me that's exactly what they do, whether you bid layover as a young guy trying to do the Austin Powers thing, or bid productivity to max your days on the golf course. 

In the end, it's probably more a lifestyle choice than a monetary one, when you get right down to it.  Folks that run on a monetary model alone should probably not be in the military (certainly not as a dedicated career soldier).

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2006, 12:51:30 »
I don't think people are in the military for the money but it certainly is important.  Your lifestyle depends to a certain extent on the money you make.  I tell you right now, if the military didn't pay a dime, I wouldn't be in the military.

Having said that, I think your employment should be based on what you want to do, what you like to do, what you want to get and what are your chances of advancements.  Anyways, this is the way I see things... 

Max

Online Ditch

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2006, 14:02:09 »
The best deal is staying A class reserve and flying full time for Air Canada ;)

Not as easy as you think Max. "A" class  positions are rare in the AF and rarely have anything to do with being a Pilot.  We have one  "B"Class  flying pilot at our Squadron - the "A" class Pilots all fly desks.  A maximum of 12 paid days per month will not give you enough time to maintain your flying quals and all your secondary duties.

If you want to push buttons for a living and wear a suit to work - Big Red is your calling.  If you want to really fly and have some say into what you do and where you go - military aviation is the community for you.
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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2006, 15:38:36 »
Hi Zoomie.  I'm at 402 Sqn right now (a Total Force Squadron) and we have SEVERAL of those guys, even some that have never done reg force.  My wife might go through the same thing.  Those people are considered experienced pilots and by pass Moose Jaw and go straight to the King Air then Dash 8.  We also have a lots of retired people on class A and B.  Most of the Class A people fly for civilian companies.

Max

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2006, 19:30:53 »
Seen Max - 402 is an odd-ball when it comes to that...  Guys like Jim (no last names) who already fly for Big Red and want to experience real flying are a good asset for the CF.  We can get them to back-fill a rather benign job like training baby-navigators, freeing up CF Pilots for more operational duties. 
For the un-informed, these pilots cannot go anywhere else and are restricted to flying the Dash-8 only.  If they want to fly any other piece of kit, they need to join the Reg Force and go through all the pilot training.
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Offline ark

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2006, 12:27:02 »
J_Muir - OJT choices are varied and really up to you as the OJTer.   What city do you live in?  Do you want to stay at home?  Are your married?  If you want to fly Hornets, you can get an OJT at an operational fighter squadron.  You will be La Reine du Photocopier - but at least you will be able to fly in a Bravo.

Do you get to jump from one OJT to another in a different location or are you stuck with the same one from day one until you get your wings?

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2006, 12:41:07 »
Do you get to jump from one OJT to another in a different location or are you stuck with the same one from day one until you get your wings?

Depends on the unit you're doing OJT at.  I worked with one OJT here to transfer to another unit, but he was still considered posted to the unit here, and only attach posted to the other unit (i.e. no formal move, etc... at the end of his OJT, he still has to clear out through this unit).  It is more acceptable between gaining/losing units if there are no additional costs; there can be and this would come out of one of the unit's budgets, not the career managers pot.  That's why it usually happens only in exceptional cases.

Cheers,
Duey

Offline Baden Guy

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2006, 19:34:57 »
Calgary, experiencing dramatic growth, an economic and business powerhouse within Canada now and for the future. Alberta finally gaining the political power it has sought since it's inception. A smart young man native to the province, graduating with a university education into this hotbed of capitalism and opportunity. But he chooses to move away from all these possibilities and opportunity, choosing a career path followed by less that one percent of Canadians.
Canada's military during the Cold War presented little chance to be killed or to kill others. Now we see 23 Canadian deaths and counting in a cause while admireable may not be achievable through military means.
Canadians are now realizing that the purpose of a military force is to "break things and kill people."
I am retired after a 27 year career and support our troops and feel the loss each time we experience another death.
Many people enter the military seeking an education or career training. To enter with a university education and the potential of a life with a job, a family and a career, not so common.
I wish you nothing but the best Mr. Muir but consider your choices carefully.

Offline J_Muir

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2006, 12:40:53 »
Calgary, experiencing dramatic growth, an economic and business powerhouse within Canada now and for the future. Alberta finally gaining the political power it has sought since it's inception. A smart young man native to the province, graduating with a university education into this hotbed of capitalism and opportunity. But he chooses to move away from all these possibilities and opportunity, choosing a career path followed by less that one percent of Canadians.
Canada's military during the Cold War presented little chance to be killed or to kill others. Now we see 23 Canadian deaths and counting in a cause while admireable may not be achievable through military means.
Canadians are now realizing that the purpose of a military force is to "break things and kill people."
I am retired after a 27 year career and support our troops and feel the loss each time we experience another death.
Many people enter the military seeking an education or career training. To enter with a university education and the potential of a life with a job, a family and a career, not so common.
I wish you nothing but the best Mr. Muir but consider your choices carefully.


I completely understand what you're saying and can see why it seems like a not so common choice, given my circumstances. Basically, it comes down to a few points for me as to why I want to do it.

- I love flying and have always wanted to make a career out of it via the airforce
- I've always felt drawn toward the military
- I feel like the Canadian military need people like me *

* When I say 'people like me', I dont mean to sound arrogant. I think that people who join the military with a degree from a civy university are more likely to be highly motivated than someone who went through RMC and has a contract to honour. I'm only speculating here, but in general, I think that's maybe how it is.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 12:47:54 by J_Muir »

Offline Torlyn

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2006, 14:13:45 »
* When I say 'people like me', I dont mean to sound arrogant. I think that people who join the military with a degree from a civy university are more likely to be highly motivated than someone who went through RMC and has a contract to honour. I'm only speculating here, but in general, I think that's maybe how it is.

As a DEO, I call BS.  I'm highly motivated not because I got my degree on my own.  I'm highly motivated because I love what I'm here for, and I motivate myself accordingly.  We have a pile of RMC kids going through the ropes here right now, and they are no differently motivated than those of us who got our civvie degrees first.  You will see people trying to buck the system on both ends.  You will find good and bad sailors and soldiers regardless of their entry program.  Do not come in with any sort of preconceived opinions about DEO vs RMC vs CFR's, it will be more harmful than helpful.

Know why YOU want to be here, and worry about YOU.  The military will tell you when it's time to start worrying about others, and believe me, it'll be a while.

T

Offline J_Muir

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2006, 14:30:27 »
As a DEO, I call BS.  I'm highly motivated not because I got my degree on my own.  I'm highly motivated because I love what I'm here for, and I motivate myself accordingly.  We have a pile of RMC kids going through the ropes here right now, and they are no differently motivated than those of us who got our civvie degrees first.  You will see people trying to buck the system on both ends.  You will find good and bad sailors and soldiers regardless of their entry program.  Do not come in with any sort of preconceived opinions about DEO vs RMC vs CFR's, it will be more harmful than helpful.

Know why YOU want to be here, and worry about YOU.  The military will tell you when it's time to start worrying about others, and believe me, it'll be a while.

T

Like I said, I was just speculating. I dont know enough about it to make objective statements. I was just trying to get my point across - that the military needs motivated people like myself, regardless of background.

Offline jmnavy

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2006, 14:57:13 »
I finally got my transfer to go through so I'm another DEO pilot, leaving for botc in 3 weeks.   Any advice on which bases would be good for experiencing tac hel during the pre-portage OJT months?  I understand I have some say in where I'll be put after botc and I'm trying to figure out what my choices would be.  I've seen the list of bases on dnd.ca but I've never been to most of them, only borden and valcartier.
Thanks

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2006, 16:01:20 »
Like I said, I was just speculating. I dint know enough about it to make objective statements. I was just trying to get my point across - that the military needs motivated people like myself, regardless of background.

   Point taken. And by the way some DEO's have done quite well for themselves:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Hillier

Offline J_Muir

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2006, 16:50:40 »
After passing ACS, how long until a person begins Officer training, SLT and Primary flight training?

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2006, 16:56:38 »
After passing ACS, how long until a person begins Officer training, SLT and Primary flight training?

It all depends on when the next Pilot Selection board is sitting.  They only sit once or twice a year AFAIK.

Don't expect a summer BOTC - most likely start dates will be Sept or Jan.

September BOTC start timeline would be as such.

Basic Training (IAP, BOTP, whatever it is called this week) - Sept - Dec
Second Language Training (if the AF decides to send you) Jan - Aug
Air Force OPME residential program - Sept - Oct (if PFT not on the horizon)
Primary Flight Training - Oct - Dec (if loaded immediately).

*edit- Just fixed your quotes Z.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 20:29:40 by Inch »
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Offline J_Muir

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2006, 17:14:31 »
Quote

It all depends on when the next Pilot Selection board is sitting.  They only sit once or twice a year AFAIK.

Don't expect a summer BOTC - most likely start dates will be Sept or Jan.

September BOTC start timeline would be as such.

Basic Training (IAP, BOTP, whatever it is called this week) - Sept - Dec
Second Language Training (if the AF decides to send you) Jan - Aug
Air Force OPME residential program - Sept - Oct (if PFT not on the horizon)
Primary Flight Training - Oct - Dec (if loaded immediately).

Thanks, good to know. I probably need to get in contact with a recruiter about this, but I'll ask anyway - Is it possible to send in my application for ACS before I have a physical copy of my degree. Because what I'd like to do is send it all in just as I'm finishing school so that I can pretty much head straight into it, rather than waiting around for convocation to finish. Basically, just speeding things up from my end.

*edit - quotes fixed.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 20:31:13 by Inch »

Offline jmnavy

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2006, 18:16:13 »
They never asked me for a copy of my degree, only for my university transcript.  Right now mine says that my program has been completed but that my degree has yet to be conferred and that seems to be enough for them, so it's doubtful that you'd have to wait for your convocation.

As far as timelines go, if you're going to finish your degree in april 08 (you said 2 years left right?) and want to do botc in september, then I'd start the application process by late 07.   Here's roughly the timeline I've been through leading up to botc this september.

Sep 05 Submitted application
Nov 05 Medical
Dec 05 Optometrist exam
Feb 06 ACS
Apr 06 Interview/fitness test
June 06 Board sits
July 06 Job offer
Aug 06 Swearing in ceremony
Sep 06 BOTC

The order's a little different for me than it will be for you.  Because I was a transfer I didn't have to do my interview and fitness until after acs, you'll have to do it before.  You'll also have to write an aptitude test early on in the process.  Generally the two steps that put a halt to most people are the optometrist's exam and ACS.  Not much you can do about the first, but for getting through ACS there are a couple of good threads out there.  Your recruiting centre should also give you a study guide when the time comes.

Offline J_Muir

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2006, 19:06:56 »
They never asked me for a copy of my degree, only for my university transcript.  Right now mine says that my program has been completed but that my degree has yet to be conferred and that seems to be enough for them, so it's doubtful that you'd have to wait for your convocation.

As far as timelines go, if you're going to finish your degree in april 08 (you said 2 years left right?) and want to do botc in september, then I'd start the application process by late 07.   Here's roughly the timeline I've been through leading up to botc this september.

Sep 05 Submitted application
Nov 05 Medical
Dec 05 Optometrist exam
Feb 06 ACS
Apr 06 Interview/fitness test
June 06 Board sits
July 06 Job offer
Aug 06 Swearing in ceremony
Sep 06 BOTC

The order's a little different for me than it will be for you.  Because I was a transfer I didn't have to do my interview and fitness until after acs, you'll have to do it before.  You'll also have to write an aptitude test early on in the process.  Generally the two steps that put a halt to most people are the optometrist's exam and ACS.  Not much you can do about the first, but for getting through ACS there are a couple of good threads out there.  Your recruiting centre should also give you a study guide when the time comes.

Thanks for the info man, I really appreciate it. So did you get contacted with direction to get a medical and to see an optometrist? I assume after they recieved your application, they sent you a response requesting those tests and then you sent them the results when they were complete - and then they gave you your ACS date.

I've read up a lot on ACS. Sounds like it has potential to actually be a fun time (more so if you pass!) How did you make out at ACS? What did you find the most challenging parts? Anything you would have prepared for more? Do you actually find out the same day if you passed? Finally, if you pass ACS, what sorts of things does the board look at when deciding upon what to offer you? I mean if you pass, you pass right?...or do they disect each portion of ACS and decide from there?

Thanks again
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 19:10:31 by J_Muir »

Offline jmnavy

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2006, 20:54:40 »
ACS was tough, mostly because it's so much waiting.  Day 2 in particular was just 2 one hour simulator sessions and a bunch of waiting around.  I think I showed up as well prepared as anyone even though I only have a few hours of actual flying experience.  The rest was a lot practicing on ms flight simulator using a usb yoke and pedals (see the link I posted above for info about them).  I also booked a few simulator lessons at a flight school in town with an instructor which was a big help.

I don't know what the board looks at but one of the guys who passed ACS with me was later rejected as a ROTP candidate.  My understanding from speaking to one of the guys at the recruiting centre about it was that this year was a very competitive year for rotp pilot and he just didn't make the grade, but I don't know what specifically did it for him.  The moral of the story is that every step is important.

When you start the process I do have this advice for you; keep in touch with your recruiting centre regularly.  Call them or see them in person ("I was in the area") every three or four weeks to ask a couple of questions and get an update.  There's a balance to strike between being proactive and being a pest of course (if you call and they recognize your name, that's good.  If they recognize your voice, that's very bad), but it's a long process so building a relationship of sorts with your recruiting centre is important.

Edit: Here's the link I meant to reference regarding the usb yoke and pedals.  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,36026.0.html
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 15:10:06 by jmnavy »

Offline inferno

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Re: Becoming a Pilot in the CF.
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2006, 02:34:53 »
What JMnavy said is important.

Definitely keep in touch. I think I only got called once or twice during the entire process. Most of the time I'd call up, and when I said my name the clerk (I don't know if I was lucky, but in my opinion I had a great clerk) would instantly recognise it and ask me how school was going, and so on.

After that she'd say.. "Oh.. btw, I have your... blank.. here and you can come pick it up.. drop it off." whatever needed to be done.

I was very surprised after my first few calls. Definitely made me feel like they were looking out for my file, and I wasn't just another peice of paper in a desk drawer. I don't know if its just for applicants that are more involved.. (eg. have to go to ACS.. or any other extra testing/paperwork) but by the time I finished, when I walked into the center, the Lt.(N), the Clerk, and her assistant would all recogise me, say hello.. ask how school/acs/eye tests... and so on were going or went. Seemed genuinely happy when I came into the recruiting center with a HUGE grin after going to ACS. :)