Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 472228 times)

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Online NavyShooter

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #625 on: January 01, 2015, 10:57:52 »
All that makes sense....which is probably why it ain't gonna happen!  ;-)

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #626 on: January 02, 2015, 15:37:55 »
You cannot have a situation where one crew can respond whilst another can't.  Coast guard is needed for clean-up, maintaining channels, surface rescue and clearing ice channels.  These skill sets do not require the use of an mg. Requirement for an armed naval vessel with other than first year ice capabilities is very limited.  After all, if the ice is that bad what are you going in after?  Anyone up there is going to be iced in unless it is another ice breaker and no one is going to invade Canada from the north at 5 knots or less.  Better to return to the armed fisheries or RCMP model if the navy isn't going to be properly expanded to satisfy the defense role.  IMHO expanding naval capabilities is by far the best solution.

The purpose of the MG is to cover the boarding party and that sort of stuff does happen even now. I have done boardings with fisheries officers and RCMP, other guys I know have supported military boardings over the years from CCG ships. Since these ships may be the only presence in the Arctic, then have the MG allows a reasonable show of force, enough to make the point. Kirkhill, since most CCG ships can't run away, they have no choice but to return fire. Thankfully a icebreaker has a fairly thick hull and upperworks compared to naval vessels

Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #627 on: January 02, 2015, 16:41:21 »
Would DEMS provide a useful model for equipping CCG vessels that, for whatever reason, might require armament?

Also, would seem to make sense to have Federal vessels beyond a certain size fitted for but not with whatever small arms might be useful should there be an RCN or RCMP role requiring that vessel: perhaps hardpoints for .50s, provisions for boarding party small arms lockers, and ammunition storage.

Offline The_Dictat

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #628 on: January 16, 2015, 12:02:01 »
Taken from ctvnews.ca.

Ottawa inks Arctic patrol ship deal with Irving Shipbuilding

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ottawa-inks-arctic-patrol-ship-deal-with-irving-shipbuilding-1.2192175#ixzz3P0M5O7HD

The Canadian Press
Published Friday, January 16, 2015 11:59AM EST


OTTAWA - The Harper government has inked a contract to build its long-promised Arctic patrol ships, but it had to increase the overall project budget to get there.
 
Officials from Public Works and National Defence, along with Irving Shipbuilding President Kevin McCoy, made the announcement today in Ottawa ahead of a planned event next week in Halifax.
 
The entire program is now expected to cost $3.5 billion, instead of the $3.1 billion initially proposed when the ships were first announced back in 2007 as part of the Conservative government's ambitious plan to rebuild the military.
 
The agreement is to construct six of the light icebreakers for the navy's use in the North and off both coasts, but officials acknowledge that could slip to five if the program runs into trouble.
 
The deal provides incentives to Irving to keep costs down in order to deliver all six ships on time and on budget.
 
The parliamentary budget office warned last fall that delays and the corrosive effect of inflation would force the Conservative government to buy fewer ships if it stuck


Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ottawa-inks-arctic-patrol-ship-deal-with-irving-shipbuilding-1.2192175#ixzz3P0LyYZTy

Offline captloadie

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #629 on: January 16, 2015, 13:32:05 »
A convenient time for a downturn in the Alberta economy. All the east coast tradesmen that will be out of work out west can now join Irving and reduce their commute.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #630 on: January 16, 2015, 13:45:50 »
This is ridiculous.

We don't want a contract with incentives to Irving to stay on time and budget - We want SEVERE penalties to Irving for failing to do so. They should get NO PROFIT WHATSOEVER for merely doing that which the contract requires them to do.
 

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #631 on: January 16, 2015, 14:22:25 »
This the CCP getting their ducks in a row for a looming election.

Smoke and mirrors.  When will they start cutting steel again ?
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #632 on: January 16, 2015, 14:24:52 »
When will they start cutting steel again ?
September, according to my son who works there.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #633 on: January 16, 2015, 14:46:37 »
September, according to my son who works there.

That would be nice! 
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Offline MCG

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #634 on: January 16, 2015, 23:21:00 »
My guess is that we will only ever see five of these.  The potential, optional sixth will be killed by inflation.
Quote
Canada's navy to get 5 or 6 Arctic ships, not 8
Price jumps to $3.5 billion, first vessel scheduled for 2018

JAMES CUDMORE, CBC NEWS
16 Jan 2015

Seven years after announcing a plan to buy Arctic patrol ships for the navy, the Conservative government announced Friday it has signed a contract guaranteeing delivery of five of the vessels, with the possibility of a sixth, if the shipyard can pull it off.

The announcement put an end — finally — to the pretext the government could buy as many as eight ships within the $3.1-billion budget set in 2007 for the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship program.

The questions of cost and quantity have been alive for years, and doubts about the program's ability to produce the required number of vessels without blowing the budget have featured in reports by the Parliamentary Budget Officer and the auditor general.

Friday, the government effectively bowed to those criticisms, announcing the program's $3.1-billion cap had recently been expanded to $3.5-billion to ensure a cash buffer for at least five, if not six, ships.
At a technical briefing, a senior government official said the contract marked a milestone in the government's high-stakes, $35-billion National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.

Rebuilding industry to rebuild the fleet

The strategy was launched in 2010 as a co-operative program with industry to provide access to qualified Canadian shipbuilding in rebuilding the fleet.

The government says it will create 15,000 jobs over 30 years.

The program includes new supply ships and warships for the navy, new patrol vessels and an icebreaker for the Coast Guard, and the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships to be built by Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax.
Observers have paid close attention to this program, seeing it as a barometer of success for the government's strategy.

"The fact an AOPS contract has been agreed is significant," the official said. "But there is still risk ahead."
"The AOPS is a new design and a new class of ship being built in a brand new shipyard. These factors bring risks with them," the official said.

"The challenge is to find the appropriate balance between risk and cost certainty."

6 ships or 8? How about 5?

That risk is already manifest in the re-evaluation of the number of ships to be delivered. The initial plan called for as many as eight vessels, and the program was designed to deliver between six and eight. Friday's contract with Irving Shipbuilding guarantees only five ships, but there is strong desire for a sixth if Irving can get it done.

Kevin McCoy, the president of Irving Shipbuilding, said Friday the company believes it will build that sixth ship.

"We expect to deliver six ships for the Royal Canadian Navy," he said.

Stated broadly, the contract includes costs for the ship and the shipbuilding, and a separate fee charged by Irving to account for profit. If Irving keeps its costs down enough to get the sixth ship built, the fees go up. If the costs go up, the fees go down.

"We are highly incentivized to reduce spending so that our overall profit fee is maximized," McCoy said.
But Irving's pursuit of low costs and higher profit has led to concern in some corners that subcontractors are being pushed to aggressively reduce their own bills to win Irving business.

McCoy said Irving is applying that tough approach inside its operations, too.

"We have brought in outside advisers over the last five months alone, twice, to challenge us internally on our costs and our assumptions," he said.

"We are doing the same approach with our subcontractors for the budget and to deliver six ships here."
A senior government official Friday praised that approach.

"We have been equally heavy-handed with Irving Shipbuilding on its costs," the official said. "There was a lot of back and forth about making sure that we could drive costs as low as absolutely possible and this is done in making sure we can maximize the amount of the budget that can be spent on ships."

Production to start just before election

Production is expected to begin in September, one month before the Oct. 19 date fixed for the next federal election.

The first ship is due in 2018, with subsequent ships following at nine-month intervals. However much effort is being spent on cost containment, defence economist Dave Perry believes paying too high a price at the front end of the patrol-ship process will likely lead to lower costs and more secure delivery later on.
The more costly and arguably more important combat-ship program will follow at Irving's Halifax shipyard.

That program is worth roughly $25 billion for some 23 new combatant ships to replace the Halifax-class frigates and Iroquois-class Air Defence Destroyers.

"If you take the approach that is not a $3-billion project in isolation, but $30-billion worth of work, then I think it makes an awful lot of sense to potentially spend a bit more money up front on the small project to get everyone up to speed, to make sure the workforce is in place," Perry said.

"NSPS is not just a shipbuilding strategy, it's a strategy to build the industry to build the ships."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-s-navy-to-get-5-or-6-arctic-ships-not-8-1.2913159

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #635 on: February 17, 2015, 08:54:54 »
I am pretty confident (for what it is worth) that we will see 6...maybe still 6-8 even.
http://rcn-mrc.mil.ca/repository/pa-ap/RCN-AOPS-Fact-Sheet-Eng.pdf
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Offline sunrayRnfldR

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #636 on: February 17, 2015, 19:12:29 »
Pat: I don't think your forecast of 6+ Harry Dewolf Class is unrealistic. If the destroyer replacement program is delayed, the shipyard will have to construct something to fill the gap and prevent lay-offs of experienced staff. The only ship design ready for construction at that point will be the Dewolfs. They may be modified to take into account early operational experience or new needs.
Brian

Offline MCG

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #637 on: February 17, 2015, 20:35:20 »
Pat: I don't think your forecast of 6+ Harry Dewolf Class is unrealistic. If the destroyer replacement program is delayed, the shipyard will have to construct something to fill the gap and prevent lay-offs of experienced staff. The only ship design ready for construction at that point will be the Dewolfs. They may be modified to take into account early operational experience or new needs.
Brian
If that is a realistic eventuality, the consequences will likely be unfortunate.
Where does the money come from?  Will there be fewer CSCs to pay for this?  Don't expect any possible government to throw more cash into the pot.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #638 on: February 17, 2015, 22:31:04 »
Pat: I don't think your forecast of 6+ Harry Dewolf Class is unrealistic. If the destroyer replacement program is delayed, the shipyard will have to construct something to fill the gap and prevent lay-offs of experienced staff. The only ship design ready for construction at that point will be the Dewolfs. They may be modified to take into account early operational experience or new needs.
Brian

Personally I think 6 AOPS only will be built and Irving will make a big deal how they did it efficiently enough to have enough money for the 6th hull. I also think the CSC will start on time as everything by that time should be in place and ready to go.
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كافر

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #639 on: February 17, 2015, 22:37:46 »
Has anyone read anything on what the weaponry will be like on the new Dewolf class ships?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #640 on: February 17, 2015, 22:49:03 »
Has anyone read anything on what the weaponry will be like on the new Dewolf class ships?

Given the cost premium we're paying for Canadian-built ships, I can only assume it's going to be armed with sharks.  Sharks with frickin' laser beams.
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Offline Thumper81

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #641 on: February 17, 2015, 22:56:10 »
From the handouts from the presentation on the AOPS I went to it looks like a BAE Systems Mk 38 25-mm Chain Gun (Bushmaster. Same as the LAV III) and some Browning 0.50 HMGs.  Disappointing as I figured they'd arm it with a Bofors 57-mm to keep commonality with the CPFs.  It is also a far more effective weapon.  It's sad when the US Coast Guard has better armed ships than our Navy does.   
http://www.baesystems.com/product/BAES_020038/mk-38-mod-2-machine-gun-system-mgs

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #642 on: February 17, 2015, 23:12:40 »
Given the cost premium we're paying for Canadian-built ships, I can only assume it's going to be armed with sharks.  Sharks with frickin' laser beams.

You may want to paten that idea as it sounds like the next "sharknado" could be something like "Lazer Sharks"!
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #643 on: February 17, 2015, 23:17:51 »
From the handouts from the presentation on the AOPS I went to it looks like a BAE Systems Mk 38 25-mm Chain Gun (Bushmaster. Same as the LAV III) and some Browning 0.50 HMGs.  Disappointing as I figured they'd arm it with a Bofors 57-mm to keep commonality with the CPFs.  It is also a far more effective weapon.  It's sad when the US Coast Guard has better armed ships than our Navy does.   
http://www.baesystems.com/product/BAES_020038/mk-38-mod-2-machine-gun-system-mgs

I wonder when they will implement it into our training, as ive never heard of it being used on ship. Any idea what the cannon will be? I assume it will be similiar to the MCDV's 40.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #644 on: February 17, 2015, 23:27:25 »
You may want to paten that idea as it sounds like the next "sharknado" could be something like "Lazer Sharks"!

Thank you for making me feel old.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #645 on: February 17, 2015, 23:31:25 »
 :facepalm: :facepalm: I totally forgot about that movie... shows you how much time I spend watching movies or online.
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Offline Thumper81

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #646 on: February 17, 2015, 23:32:24 »
Click the link that I put there.  It's a remotely operated system.  It's similar to the Typhoon RWS.

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #647 on: February 18, 2015, 04:39:01 »
I just realized that the link I put in above is a DIN link so you will have to check it out from work but I am pretty sure there is a description of the single gun.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #648 on: February 18, 2015, 07:15:30 »
I wonder when they will implement it into our training, as ive never heard of it being used on ship. Any idea what the cannon will be? I assume it will be similiar to the MCDV's 40.

Eventually if some reservists may get the training if they are on a course that offers it. There will probably be a few reservist on short term contracts on AOPS, but not like it was on MCDV's. It will not be offered at CFFS(Q). It is a remote controlled 25MM gun producted by BAE systems, so nowhere alike the 40MM
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #649 on: February 18, 2015, 07:23:17 »
From the handouts from the presentation on the AOPS I went to it looks like a BAE Systems Mk 38 25-mm Chain Gun (Bushmaster. Same as the LAV III) and some Browning 0.50 HMGs.  Disappointing as I figured they'd arm it with a Bofors 57-mm to keep commonality with the CPFs.  It is also a far more effective weapon.  It's sad when the US Coast Guard has better armed ships than our Navy does.   
http://www.baesystems.com/product/BAES_020038/mk-38-mod-2-machine-gun-system-mgs

I don't think it requires a heavy gun as it will never see combat. There is a lot more things required to have a 57 mm, ammo handling system, bigger mag, more weapon techs etc. The 25mm will be plenty for what it will be required to do.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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