LGBTQ Stuff (split from other political threads)

[dimsum]

LGBT rights in Algeria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Algeria does not allow legal changes in gender. That, in itself, should have stopped the notion that she was born male.

However, if she is intersex (which, to be clear, I am not arguing that she is), then by Algerian law that means she must have been born with female body parts as a baby. If she is good enough to be in the Olympics in boxing, which is segregated between male/female, then what category should she have competed in?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

She isn't even anamoly in combat sports. Remember that Olympic Boxing is amateur and it's not uncommon for there to be someone who is head and shoulders better than all the competition. She will definitely go pro after this and will face far tougher competition.

As for her being disqualified in previous competitions for high testosterone levels, yah she was probably juicing. Combat Sports are rife with PEDs at all levels, it's how fighters are able to recover from injuries.

As for her dominance, she kind of reminds me of Cris Cyborg Santos who was an utterly dominant MMA fighter/kickboxer:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

As for Khelif... she has an interesting background story which she has discussed previously:

The Algeria Olympic Committee (COA) said: "COA strongly condemns the unethical targeting and maligning of our esteemed athlete, Imane Khelif, with baseless propaganda from certain foreign media outlets."

Khelif, who is a Unicef ambassador, has previously spoken, external about growing up in rural village and not being allowed to take part in sport initially by her father as "he did not approve of boxing for girls".

Paris 2024: Algeria condemn 'baseless attacks' on boxer

Algeria's Olympic Committee condemns "baseless" attacks on their boxer Imane Khelif after questions are raised over her participation at the Paris Olympics.

www.bbc.com

A lot more about her in the UNICEF article:

https://www.unicef.org/algeria/en/stories/top-female-boxer-imane-khelif-dreams-gold-inspire-young-people

She sounds like an all around upstanding human-being who had to overcome a lot of obstacles to get where she is today.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Perhaps we need another category so athletes with some advantages are paired more equally. For a world class athlete to bow out of a match they have worked years to get to in 45 seconds for a safety issue, tells me that something is wrong.

Something was wrong- her nose objected to being punched, to a degree she could not continue. It happens in combat sports.

Tyson won his 1st 19 fights by knockout, 12 in the 1st round- did that tell you something was wrong, or that he was the best?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Something was wrong- her nose objected to being punched, to a degree she could not continue. It happens in combat sports.

Tyson won his 1st 19 fights by knockout, 12 in the 1st round- did that tell you something was wrong, or that he was the best?

Carini, the Italian Boxer who bowed out after 46 secs against Khelif, also has a a pretty bland record at the amateur level. She has lost roughly 20% of her fights and only has 4 KOs in 100+ fights. That's not medal winning material unfortunately and it's little surprise she got humbled in 46 seconds by a Boxer with a way better record and way more knockout power.

Carini was #13 ranked amateur globally while Khelif is #2 ranked globally at Welterweight. In combat sports, that's a HUGE difference in relative skill.

Khelif's next opponent doesn't seem super concerned:

Hamori said: “I’m not scared. If she or he is a man, it will be a bigger victory for me if I win. So let’s do it. I can’t wait for that fight. In my club at home I have only guys and male team-mates. It’s not new for me.

“It was Carini’s choice [to give up]. I don’t understand because I thought every boxer’s mind is the same like mine. Never give up. I know I won’t do this ever in my whole life.”

Imane Khelif's next Olympics opponent breaks rank with verdict on boxer at he...

Imane Khelif's previous opponent forfeited after 46 seconds due to the power of one of her punches.

www.express.co.uk

 

[IKnowNothing]

Carini, the Italian Boxer who bowed out after 46 secs against Khelif, also has a a pretty bland record at the amateur level. She has lost roughly 20% of her fights and only has 4 KOs in 100+ fights. That's not medal winning material unfortunately and it's little surprise she got humbled in 46 seconds by a Boxer with a way better record and way more knockout power.

Carini was #13 ranked amateur globally while Khelif is #2 ranked globally at Welterweight. In combat sports, that's a HUGE difference in relative skill.

Khelif's next opponent doesn't seem super concerned:

Imane Khelif's next Olympics opponent breaks rank with verdict on boxer at he...

Imane Khelif's previous opponent forfeited after 46 seconds due to the power of one of her punches.

www.express.co.uk

I have a feeling Carini would have reacted similarly to getting hit by Nunes, Cyborg, etc.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I have a feeling Carini would have reacted similarly to getting hit by Nunes, Cyborg, etc.

She would get KTFO against either of those two opponents.

Or Holly Holm...

https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/117628

Holly was an absolute banger in pro boxing and MMA

As for Olympic Boxing, it's not even pro. Most of the fighters here wouldn't even be able to compete at the pro level and it's a big step up. The Olympics is a scouting event for the pro-circuit.

 

[dimsum]

I think one thing fuelling this is that she “looks” like a man more than Holly Holm, etc does. It’s BS, but I’m sure some people take a look at her and say “well obviously she’s a dude - she looks like one”.

Besides, isn’t boxing also based on weight? The meme about a “having man fighting Carini then challenge Mike Tyson” makes no sense bc they wouldn’t be in the same weight category.

 

[QV]

Carini lost the mental game before that match even began. Game over.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I think one thing fuelling this is that she “looks” like a man more than Holly Holm, etc does. It’s BS, but I’m sure some people take a look at her and say “well obviously she’s a dude - she looks like one”.

It certainly makes it easier for the ignorant to accept without scrutiny 1 single undefended and unsubstantiated decision by the Russian head of a notoriously corrupt organization as evidence of fact.

 

[Lumber]

What do you mean that they can't be measured? Do you mean that they are bimodal? It's more than potential it's more like realized potential. What separate class would you suggest putting Phelps into a man some of whoose records are being broken right now as we speak? The Olympics aren't a separate category of competition that exists on its own

Perhaps "measure" was the wrong term. What I mean is that we can't say that "woman's maximum performance level is here, and men's maximum performance level is here." I.e. if a woman exceed that maximum, than it's unfair and she has to join the men. If a man exceeds their threshold, then we force him to retire and name a bridge after him.

That's not how it works; the bell-curve for women is to the left of men (in most sports), but that doesn't mean that theoretically there could one day be a woman who exceeds the men's highest performers. So, for example, if she naturally produces more testosterone.

 

[QV]

Perhaps "measure" was the wrong term. What I mean is that we can't say that "woman's maximum performance level is here, and men's maximum performance level is here." I.e. if a woman exceed that maximum, than it's unfair and she has to join the men. If a man exceeds their threshold, then we force him to retire and name a bridge after him.

That's not how it works; the bell-curve for women is to the left of men (in most sports), but that doesn't mean that theoretically there could one day be a woman who exceeds the men's highest performers. So, for example, if she naturally produces more testosterone.

An average of 300-1200 ng/dL for males vs 20-75 ng/dL for females. High performers would be at the upper end for each. That is a wide gap therefore I suggest your theory is naturally impossible.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I think one thing fuelling this is that she “looks” like a man more than Holly Holm, etc does. It’s BS, but I’m sure some people take a look at her and say “well obviously she’s a dude - she looks like one”.

Besides, isn’t boxing also based on weight? The meme about a “having man fighting Carini then challenge Mike Tyson” makes no sense bc they wouldn’t be in the same weight category.

Yes boxing, like all combat sports, is weight-based. Khelif is at the upper-end of Welterweight. She is also very tall and has a slender build to weight cuts aren't so bad.

 

[The Bread Guy]

LGBT rights in Algeria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Algeria does not allow legal changes in gender. That, in itself, should have stopped the notion that she was born male …,

C’mon now — You’re not going to believe a liberal woke government of a country that’s +90% Muslim on something like this, are you? Or her woke dad, a welder who raised the boxer in a remote part of said country (both big factors in leftist woke-ism), who didn’t like boxing for the kid because it was a boy’s sport? They sound like the REAL sheeple when it comes to gender politics

 

[Brad Sallows]

The biological differences cant be measured and a definitely line drawn in the sand.

Sure they can. Chromosomes are easy to measure. Just limit women's sports to pure XX.

 

[suffolkowner]

Perhaps "measure" was the wrong term. What I mean is that we can't say that "woman's maximum performance level is here, and men's maximum performance level is here." I.e. if a woman exceed that maximum, than it's unfair and she has to join the men. If a man exceeds their threshold, then we force him to retire and name a bridge after him.

That's not how it works; the bell-curve for women is to the left of men (in most sports), but that doesn't mean that theoretically there could one day be a woman who exceeds the men's highest performers. So, for example, if she naturally produces more testosterone.

yes so bimodal

An average of 300-1200 ng/dL for males vs 20-75 ng/dL for females. High performers would be at the upper end for each. That is a wide gap therefore I suggest your theory is naturally impossible.

a very good or very bad example of bimodal distribution

Sure they can. Chromosomes are easy to measure. Just limit women's sports to pure XX.

one could still have an active SRY that has been translocated and activated although very rare disorder amongst rare disorders

 

[brihard]

A nice clean summary of this read elsewhere:





Seems to be a good summary pulling together quite a bit of easily sourced and referenced info I’ve seen elsewhere. There’s no reason this should remain an issue or a controversy absent any actual evidence.

 

[McG]

How is it people who once argued the thing between one’s legs at birth irrevocably defined one’s gender are now arguing that governing bodies should have authority to reclassify a person’s gender years later despite what is & always been between that person’s legs?

How do you run around for years arguing that people are defined by their gonads, but suddenly determine the state or some international committee can redefine someone contrary to their gonads?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

How is it people who once argued the thing between one’s legs at birth irrevocably defined one’s gender are now arguing that governing bodies should have authority to reclassify a person’s gender years later despite what is & always been between that person’s legs?

How do you run around for years arguing that people are defined by their gonads, but suddenly determine the state or some international committee can redefine someone contrary to their gonads?

[devils advocate post only]
How do people who argued what gonads you have are irreverent, but all of a sudden "she has a vagina" is the rally cry?
See what I did there?

EDIT: and I'm the first to say this has brought out some ugliness in those bigoted morons who exist in this imperfect world, doesn't mean the rest of us can't have a fair discussion about the whole trans competing in women's sports talk.

 

[suffolkowner]

How is it people who once argued the thing between one’s legs at birth irrevocably defined one’s gender are now arguing that governing bodies should have authority to reclassify a person’s gender years later despite what is & always been between that person’s legs?

How do you run around for years arguing that people are defined by their gonads, but suddenly determine the state or some international committee can redefine someone contrary to their gonads?

If their external genitalia are resemble that of a female but internally they have functioning testes and no internal female reproductive structures, are they female or male?