Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement

[blackberet17]

Heh heh heh heh heh. Haven't seen that in ages, thanks!

 

[dapaterson]

Is it a bad thing that, even without clicking on the link, I know what it is and can see Rowan Atkinson, Hugh Laurie et al in my mind's eye?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No:

It just means that, in the immortal words of Gilbert and Sullivan, you've "become an Englishman".

 

[dapaterson]

You mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKXtv2_IaCY

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Quite so, Old Chap.

 

[cupper]

Is it a bad thing that, even without clicking on the link, I know what it is and can see Rowan Atkinson, Hugh Laurie et al in my mind's eye?

If you stay in long enough, you can become the very model of a modern Major General.  [

 

[Retired AF Guy]

You mean Ma...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h--HR7PWfp0&list=RDh--HR7PWfp0&index=1

"With this pricked thumb,
Something wicked this way comes."

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Well, it is what you get for asking for a "double, double", not of the Timmie's type, but of toil and trouble!

(Also, my Shakespeare is a little rusty, but I think it's in the plural. My recollection is:

By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes:
Open locks;
Whoever knocks!"

But I could be wrong)

 

[Kirkhill]

In the name of merciful heaven.  I feel inadequate.  I was only born in Britain.  ;D

 

[Underway]

So how are the TAPV working out? Now that we've had them for almost 6 months.  What are the early results of how they work and pros/cons.

Also here is a nice article discussing some of the issues with using them:

http://natoassociation.ca/adapting-with-the-times-a-look-at-the-tapv-as-an-armoured-reconnaissance-vehicle/

 

[MilEME09]

Any one else notice we keep getting bigger with vehicles, our MSVS's are as big as the HL's and yet are a ML replacement, TAPV is bigger then the Coyote, I'm all for protection but whats the point if you are the biggest target on the block.

 

[George Wallace]

Any one else notice we keep getting bigger with vehicles, our MSVS's are as big as the HL's and yet are a ML replacement, TAPV is bigger then the Coyote, I'm all for protection but whats the point if you are the biggest target on the block.

They are also losing cross-country capabilities......As if wars are fought on hard standing........ :

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Any one else notice we keep getting bigger with vehicles, our MSVS's are as big as the HL's and yet are a ML replacement, TAPV is bigger then the Coyote, I'm all for protection but whats the point if you are the biggest target on the block. 

On the flip side...protection is important too.  Most weapons and sensor (in the air, at least) will see your heat signature regardless of your size.  If I can't see your heat signature, I have a shot as seeing you on a few different RADAR modes if there is an undercast layer, etc.  Rare to find a battlespace with no airborne ISR operating over it.  The ability for things like Reapers to loiter for a longggggggggg time, locate/track/classify/designate/target an AFV is only improving.  Cross-cueing between various assets is fairly lethal for ground targets as well.

I'm not that up to snuff on ground based *anti-AFV* man portable system anymore, but surely there are thermal/IR SSMs there days that the protection is designed to increase survivability from these days, not to mention VBIEDs which are pretty common on the battlefields of today as well.

Case in point...2 examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEjL8nnu5j8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Am3GE3a1I

 

[Kirkhill]

But can you really armour-plate yourself to invulnerability?  Or is it really just matter of choosing between piling on the armour so that you can get closer to the objective before having to dismount and, ont the other hand, not being able being able to get close to the objective because you are so big you can be seen at long ranges and so heavy you can't navigate the terrain?

I am not convinced that there is any vehicle out there that can survive for long against top-attack weapons of any caliber launched by any platform.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That's the real crappy end of the crap stick, isn't it?  Deciding what threat to worry about, knowing you can't defeat them all, or even some of them.  If there is the ability to kill MBTs, well...how do you decide between level of protection against speed/mobility?  Are you even trying to protect against the air threat, or just the ground stuff (below .50cal rounds, fragmentation from arty, etc)?

 

[Kirkhill]

That's the real crappy end of the crap stick, isn't it?  Deciding what threat to worry about, knowing you can't defeat them all, or even some of them.  If there is the ability to kill MBTs, well...how do you decide between level of protection against speed/mobility?  Are you even trying to protect against the air threat, or just the ground stuff (below .50cal rounds, fragmentation from arty, etc)?

It is often argued that the machine-gun killed the old cavalry but the old cavalry, which relied on mass and required concentration to deliver effect had already proved itself vulnerable to English archers, Spanish musketeers and British Shrapnel (from 1804).  The internal combustion engine gave the concept a new lease on life because more horses could be harnessed to carry the plate for one Knight - but at a heck of a capital cost.

Now the capital cost keeps going up, resulting in fewer targets (sorry, vehicles) with a tendency to try and put more people under cover (thereby concentrating forces while they are ineffective).

The historical solution to the problem has been dispersal while increasing lethality by concentrating effective fires.

The Agincourt bowmen gave way to the Spanish Tercio which gave way to the
lines of Gustav Adolph and Maurice of Nassau which gave way to Wellingtons two rank firing lines which gave way to Craufurd's rifles.  And the artillery evolved to the netted system of fires from distributed firing points we have today.

The secret to winning, in my humble opinion, is The Shell Game - only you increase the number of shells and peas and make the peas more lethal.  Or putting it another way - firepower and mobility over protection and increase the numbers available (possible by reducing the costs of the vehicles).

 

[MilEME09]

So role how we did in WWII with shermans, the concept i mean, mass produce tons of vehicles which may not have the best protection, but gets the job done.

 

[Old Sweat]

So role how we did in WWII with shermans, the concept i mean, mass produce tons of vehicles which may not have the best protection, but gets the job done.

In my opinion the Allies made a major error in sealing the Sherman design so they fought the rest of the war with a tank that was successful in 1942, but was outmatched by improved German models of the Mk IV as well as Panthers and Tigers by 1944. Reflect on how Normandy could have gone if our tanks had guns equivalent to the 76s on the Mk IVs and Panthers, let along the 88s on the Tigers.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The secret to winning, in my humble opinion, is The Shell Game - only you increase the number of shells and peas and make the peas more lethal.  Or putting it another way - firepower and mobility over protection and increase the numbers available (possible by reducing the costs of the vehicles).

And there are some new kinds of peas out there now that can disrupt, and other peas that can kill...

Mini-versions of systems like this could very well be the cam and concealment of the future.

 

[MilEME09]

In my opinion the Allies made a major error in sealing the Sherman design so they fought the rest of the war with a tank that was successful in 1942, but was outmatched by improved German models of the Mk IV as well as Panthers and Tigers by 1944. Reflect on how Normandy could have gone if our tanks had guns equivalent to the 76s on the Mk IVs and Panthers, let along the 88s on the Tigers.

Which is why we never deployed the Ram II to Europe, while the 6 pdr gun wasn't bad, it wasn't good either, Canadian forces experimented with a 25 pdr AT gun in 1942 but the british told us it was a dumb idea and a waste of resources, in hind site a 25 pdr AT gun would of dealt with most axis armour for the rest of the war. I do agree with you though, serious political infighting delayed Pershing from getting to europe, ditto for delays in the centurion program.