BHP replacement project - C22 Pistol megathread

[KevinB]

While I agree with you, we should probably teach our pers to actually shoot with rifles first. After that we can worry about pistols.

Actually teaching pistol first builds much better habits.
If you can teach someone to shoot a pistol (which is also a lot cheaper - in terms of platform, parts and ammo) having them transition to rifle/carbine after is a cakewalk.

 

[CBH99]

I’d put money on them being carried in the empty mag shingles they have on their vests. Or this is a static range and they didn’t bother to grab holsters as the shooting program doesn’t require them and actively discourages training the draw as part of engaging.

I'm sorry, but what the f**k did I just read...??

...Or this is a static range and they didn’t bother to grab holsters as the shooting program doesn’t require them and actively discourages training the draw as part of engaging...


I'm assuming that's because training the draw has already been taught and rehearsed ad-nauseum, and this is a module based training range??

 

[brihard]

I’d put money on them being carried in the empty mag shingles they have on their vests. Or this is a static range and they didn’t bother to grab holsters as the shooting program doesn’t require them and actively discourages training the draw as part of engaging.

WTF? Why would CAF not teach engagement from the draw? If you need a pistol it’s probably cause you need it RTFN, like for a primary weapon stoppage at close range.

Loaded and readied pistols in a holster are not dangerous or scary, they’re just something to train for.

 

[KevinB]

WTF? Why would CAF not teach engagement from the draw? If you need a pistol it’s probably cause you need it RTFN, like for a primary weapon stoppage at close range.

Loaded and readied non Sig P320 pistols in a holster are not dangerous or scary, they’re just something to train for.

FIFY

 

[markppcli]

WTF? Why would CAF not teach engagement from the draw? If you need a pistol it’s probably cause you need it RTFN, like for a primary weapon stoppage at close range.

Loaded and readied pistols in a holster are not dangerous or scary, they’re just something to train for.

The CAF doesn’t like carrying pistols readied in the holster. The C22 is specifically not to be carried like this unless some stipulations are met - one of which being the member has shot pwt 3, don’t ask my what a marksmanship test is supposed to prove ref safe weapons handling. The “hot holster” thing is therefore not trained from the start and only at the end, if at all, as opposed to how every other user of hand guns would train it.

 

[brihard]

The CAF doesn’t like carrying pistols readied in the holster. The C22 is specifically not to be carried like this unless some stipulations are met - one of which being the member has shot pwt 3, don’t ask my what a marksmanship test is supposed to prove ref safe weapons handling. The “hot holster” thing is therefore not trained from the start and only at the end, if at all, as opposed to how every other user of hand guns would train it.

What an utter joke.

 

[MilEME09]

The CAF doesn’t like carrying pistols readied in the holster. The C22 is specifically not to be carried like this unless some stipulations are met - one of which being the member has shot pwt 3, don’t ask my what a marksmanship test is supposed to prove ref safe weapons handling. The “hot holster” thing is therefore not trained from the start and only at the end, if at all, as opposed to how every other user of hand guns would train it.

Yeah PWT3A (hot holster supplemental) makes more sense to teach first, it saves a huge amount of time on the other PWTs. Section 5 of the operational shooting program needs to be completely rewritten for the new pistol any way, we really need to take the opportunity to get it right

 

[markppcli]

Yeah PWT3A (hot holster supplemental) makes more sense to teach first, it saves a huge amount of time on the other PWTs. Section 5 of the operational shooting program needs to be completely rewritten for the new pistol any way, we really need to take the opportunity to get it right

The drills should be taught with the pistol holstered. So for the load, draw pistol to work space, remove magazine from the pouch, insert into pistol etc etc.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

As MH aircrew, the only thing I ever carried was a P226. The annual range qualification was done with holstered, but readied weapon. I am unaware of anyone causing an ND on the draw.

The only thing I ever carried on operations was a P226 with one up the spoutand decocked. Again, I am unaware of any ND, ever.

If a bunch of aircrew can be taught to do it safely, I would like to think army folk can be too.

 

[Good2Golf]

As MH aircrew, the only thing I ever carried was a P226. The annual range qualification was done with holstered, but readied weapon. I am unaware of anyone causing an ND on the draw.

The only thing I ever carried on operations was a P226 with one up the spoutand decocked. Again, I am unaware of any ND, ever.

If a bunch of aircrew can be taught to do it safely, I would like to think army folk can be too.

Unlike the rest of 1 Wg, 427 carried the 226…readied/Cond.1. No NDs to my knowledge. Train like you fight…heck, in AFG we even carried the BHP readied into our workplace in an *AFG govt building…sure as phuque wasn’t going to be hanging around waiting for an axe.

 

[MilEME09]

Unlike the rest of 1 Wg, at 427 we carried the 226…readied/Cond.1. No NDs to my knowledge. Train like you fight…heck, in AFG in the SAT, we even carried the BHP readied into our workplace (the Sedarat, PMs old residence)…sure as phuque wasn’t going to be hanging around waiting for an axe.

It really comes down to training, and safe handling culture. I find a lot of troops are less safe with pistols than they are rifles, at the rceme school most people fail on pistols for safety and mishandling rather then fault finding

 

[Good2Golf]

It really comes down to training, and safe handling culture. I find a lot of troops are less safe with pistols than they are rifles, at the rceme school most people fail on pistols for safety and mishandling rather then fault finding

I think it’s a confidence issue at the root of these issues. Do it often enough and it becomes second nature, and if you don’t train often, then when you go to do it, train intensely with folks who know what they’re doing.

 

[MilEME09]

I think it’s a confidence issue at the root of these issues. Do it often enough and it becomes second nature, and if you don’t train often, then when you go to do it, train intensely with folks who know what they’re doing.

Absolutely, many troops, techs included probably never touched a pistol before the military, and we expect them to be proficient after a week or so, then maybe touch it once a year after that if lucky.

Imo ive been pushing at my unit that all MRT commanders are carrying sigs in the field going forward (by doctrine we should be)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Pistol skills are the fastest degrading skills I have met. When doing IPSC, I was regularly doing 300rds a month downrange and practicing weekly. That put me into the bottom third>half of our Production Division. My instructor who still competes internationally, fires some 50,000rds yearly to be competitive.

Sadly the current laws in our country will make it impossible for troops to acquire and practice good firearm skills and I expect firearm handling skill to degrade even more over time.