Author Topic: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]  (Read 601425 times)

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Offline Allgunzblazing

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2011, 15:53:09 »
GnyHwy,

I couldn't agree more. Especially what you said about electronic gadgets being a distraction even when turned off. The fact that only the task at hand should be on their minds, can take some people a while to grasp. More so, when the distractions are not out of bounds.

Cheers,

AGB.

Offline DirtyDog

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2011, 15:54:53 »
Another bold illustration of why the CF is becoming a joke.  Talk to any infantry NCO these days and see how happy they are with the state of things (or rather, more disgruntled than usual).

Yet no one I speak to can seem to put a pin on it.  Post Afghan hang-over?

Anybody that supports a decision like that needs a slap.

Offline ARMY_101

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2011, 16:16:38 »
Social media is a distraction, plain and simple; even if it's turned off.  Everything second that is spent thinking about if someone replied to your message, or thinking about what you're going to write in your next message is a second that is not spent focused on training.  Those seconds add up quick and by the end of a 13 week period will sum to a hell of a lot of time.

And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.

Offline jasonf6

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2011, 16:18:46 »
What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?

For me, when I was at St. Jean back in '94 (and we didn't have cell phones really or the interwebs) I didn't worry about anything other than keeping my **** in order in my cubicle and on my floor.  I didn't worry about calling home (because I know where it was and where it would be when I was done) or anything.  Kids nowadays (No, Im no social expert) are too attached to their gadgets; yes, they serve a purpose in today's CF but again, to me, basic is there to prepare you for life in the CF.  The iPhones, Crackberries and the like will be there in 13-weeks. 

Offline ARMY_101

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2011, 16:20:38 »
So why change the policy to coddle people who were VR'ing due to not having their toys ?

I don't see why it was policy to confiscate electronics in the first place.  If the privilege was being abused then sure, take that person's/section's/platoon's phones away, but as discussed above, what's the problem with checking the news or media updates on your own down time?

I'd have to see the official wording of the order, as well as the cases of individuals who specifically said "I voluntarily release because Sgt. Jones wouldn't let me use my phone."  That probably won't happen, so we're left only to hypothesize...

Quote
Thats the problem right there............

Down time is necessary and okay.  Training can already run from 16-20 hours a day; what's wrong with an hour of "nothing to do"?

aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2011, 16:21:07 »
And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.

101.....the policy was changed specifically to reduce the instance of VRs. Say this out loud a few times until you see whats wrong with that.

It doesn't matter if people have common sense or not, the fact is that people were getting out because they couldn't have their toys. You don't see a problem down the line with that ?

aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2011, 16:22:52 »
so we're left only to hypothesize...



No, we have the word of a CFLRS instructor, whom i know personally.

Offline ballz

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2011, 16:29:16 »
And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages. Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

We clearly don't live on the same planet.

EDIT spelling
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 17:00:19 by ballz »
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Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2011, 16:43:49 »
Army 101

I am a instructor at CFLRS the person who started this thread so that potential recruits could stop constantly asking what the policy was re electronics (it had recently changed) I will reiterate something for you. from the Commandants mouth " Trials were done on 4 Platoons, those Platoons were allowed to keep their personal electronice (cells phones etc) it was shown that by allowing those recruits to keep their electronic devices that VR's were down 66%"

Now you could argue complete coincidence seeing as no one has ever said I'm VRing because I don't have my phone but the numbers say otherwise don't they.

Rider,

You know me I'm not the doom and gloom type and yes I will be the first to admit a huge culuture shock from working with you to going to CFLRS. I stand by my personal assesment that this system is not only wrong it is dangerous (the system as whole not just this policy). 
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

When the going gets tough I take a nap...It's easier that way

Offline DirtyDog

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2011, 16:55:50 »
And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.
I've seen troops on operation (ever been on one?) get downright PISSY when they found out they'd be seperated from the internet for 72 hours.  I wouldn't normally say it's a generational thing, as there were a lot of guys in his age bracket who could handle a little austerity (know what that is?) now again, but it is FAR more common to see it among the younger troops who can't pull their faces out of their smart phone or laptop.

Anyone who sees fit to defend a decision like this is out of touch with what soldiering is about.  If a bunch of punks can't handle 4 weeks without their precious gadgets they need to be spit back out on the streets and their foul taste erased from the army's memory.

FYI - Electronics were allowed on most of my BMQ as it wasn't seen as much of a problem then and it didn't seem to be a distraction either.  However, there were many instances in my career with everything was strictly forbidden and somehow, I managed.

Offline ARMY_101

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2011, 17:02:42 »
Army 101

I am a instructor at CFLRS the person who started this thread so that potential recruits could stop constantly asking what the policy was re electronics (it had recently changed) I will reiterate something for you. from the Commandants mouth " Trials were done on 4 Platoons, those Platoons were allowed to keep their personal electronice (cells phones etc) it was shown that by allowing those recruits to keep their electronic devices that VR's were down 66%"

Now you could argue complete coincidence seeing as no one has ever said I'm VRing because I don't have my phone but the numbers say otherwise don't they.

Fair enough. I did not mean for my comments to suggest you were lying or unaware of what was said, if that's how it came out.

I think I've said my peace on this topic.

Offline jasonf6

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2011, 17:16:31 »

Anyone who sees fit to defend a decision like this is out of touch with what soldiering is about.  If a bunch of punks can't handle 4 weeks without their precious gadgets they need to be spit back out on the streets and their foul taste erased from the army's memory.


 :+1:

Offline GnyHwy

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2011, 17:17:56 »
And you're speaking from first hand experience on this? 

As an experienced instructor and leader of troops, yes.  It is very simple to tell when troops are distracted.  Is that entirely because of phones?  No, I don't believe so, but it I am certain that it is in some cases.

Now that it seems that I am a hardass jerk, this is not the case.  I am quite the opposite; I am a very reasonable guy.  This is my earlier quote.

Communications of all types in the recruit school should be limited to a short window per day.  I say 1-2 hours after supper or your last period; that is usually when our brain is mush anyway.  Special circumstances can be handled on a case by case basis.

This can be simplified down to understanding priorities, which a significant number of young troops don't yet understand.  During the work day and except for significant family issues, if social media is anywhere but the bottom of the list, then priorities have been misplaced.
Luck is for Suckers - GnyHwy

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Offline Bass ackwards

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2011, 18:43:20 »
It seems to me that this is the world that we built for ourselves. The spoiled, instant-gratification, me-first/me-only world that we've been carefully cultivating since the sixties.
It's probably not the one that most of the readers/posters here wanted -and in fact many probably tried their level best to prevent -but there it is.
It's like an infuriated conservative watching Trudeau/Cretien/Martin being elected (or, for that matter, a no doubt equally infuriated liberal watching Steven Harper being sworn in).
It's not the world you want. For Goddamn sure you knew what the consequences would be -but the majority made that decision for you.

But from what I've seen, somehow, miraculously, some pretty good kids still manage to claw their way up the pipeline.
Not just in the military but in civvie jobs too.

I think the best we can do is cultivate the good ones, try the best we can with the so-so, and let Mr Darwin take the rest.

Just my  :2c:
   

Offline No sea to ruff

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2011, 20:11:19 »
Certainly agree with all  comments that this new directive makes one shake his/her head . But...there you have it "the crux of the biscuit" its been comin' on for a long time. I feel sometimes my hands are tied as to how I raise my son. We all have to pull on the same rope to make it work. Seems to me the young fellers today would rather argue that point or tell me "go to hell old man".

Just sayin'

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2011, 21:21:06 »
All

As of now recruits and Officer Cadets WILL be allowed to have access to their personal electronics (Cell phone, Laptop, IPod etc etc) for the entire course.

no longer will they be taken for the first 4 weeks of training and then accessed only on weekends after the 4 week in-doc. Now all candidates will have access to them for the entire course.

The Commandant has taken this step as it was seen to reduce the VR rate by 66% during the trial PL's that were run.

On a personal note many of you will cry havoc at this step (myself included) but he is the CO and thus we follow his directives. Do I like it no, do I agree with it HELL NO but there it is. And people wonder why I am releasing....  ::)

Edit: Spelling

This is a really bad move.

The fact that banning electronic devices was causing an increased VR rate tells me that the ban is doing it's job.
People these day go to crap if they can't access their cell phones or the internet. We punted a Sgt from tour while overseas because he couldn't disconnect from stupid online dating websites.
NCMs sneaking off to text is a huge problem. future leaders on my leadership course would sit in the back of the class and ignore the class material and text or watch porn and laugh about it.

if a kid is going to cry and want to quit because he can't update facebook for a month then that's not the kind of person we need in the military. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir with this.  I think the Commandant is looking at numbers and not quality, unfortunately.
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Offline MCG

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2011, 21:53:43 »
I have heard that some US Army schools have responded to the problem of an iPhone addicted recruit base by issuing iPhones to everybody on occupation training.
... of course, like every CF issued Blackberry, the techs have disabled all the features that the schools don't want the students using, and the majority of apps are actually e-learning tools (like a US Army Ethic trg app).  Instead of Angry Birds, the games socialize messages of US Army culture.


Offline Tank Troll

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2011, 22:24:10 »
With postions in the Forces being limited as they are these days you'd think we would want to be more selective. If not having electronic devices makes people quit then I say GOOD it is an other weeding out process. Remember YOU joined the CF we didn't join you! You need to fit to our world and regulations not the other way around.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 09:14:11 by Tank Troll »
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Offline krustyrl

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2011, 23:14:32 »
 :goodpost:

Offline jasonf6

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2011, 08:57:31 »
With postions in the Forces being limited as they are these days you'd think we would want to be more selective. If not have electronic devices makes people quit then I say GOOD it is an other weeding out process. Remember YOU joined the CF we didn't join you! You need to fit to our world and regulations not the other way around.
Exactly.  Use their inability to cope with the loss of their precious devices as another screening tool. 

I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I wanted to be doing during basic and battle school at the end of the day was worrying about a missed text message or e-mail.  I was tired and had a crapload of things to get ready for the morning before heading to bed.  I had other priorities. :)

Offline Craisome

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2011, 09:06:06 »
I consider myself lucky that I'm slightly above the texting generation (I think).

If you think kids these days aren't addicted to texting or updating status all the time, I took my 16 year old cousin hunting for the first time this year.

What did he do the first thing after shooting a partridge?  Make a post on Facebook...   Gun in one hand, cell phone in the other.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2011, 09:13:42 »
When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:

THE SKY IS FALLING crowd - those that think the overall effectiveness of the CF is totally compromised over some electronic devices that recruits are allowed during BMQ.

Then we have the other side that thinks its fine and unlimited use is OK no matter what standard the recruit accomplishes.

Have you ever thought we have policies in place to deal with this? IF Recruit Bloggins has not completed his/her tasks as ordered by his Section commander due to his /her excessive time on line.....he/she can be charged or counselled, correct? So what's wrong with the recruits keeping cell phones/electronics provided they get their jobs done to the standard expected?

Its the 21st Century, troops.  I don't see the issue here.
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Offline DexOlesa

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2011, 09:58:20 »
Quote
The instructors at BMQ are being put to task for taking such aggressive postures as putting their hands on their hips, or crossing their arms

The troops too, at least by the PSP staff. After a run or something if you put your hands on your hips you were showing an aggressive and unacceptable stance, group pushups ensue. I don't know where that BS came from. None of my course staff scared me by putting their hands on their hips or the overly aggressive arm crossing..... They had much better ways to scare me  >:D

aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2011, 10:05:02 »
When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:

No, Jim, we see 3 crowds.

I'm in the crowd that doesn't think the sky is falling but i am in the crowd that thinks we simply shifted the burden of indoctrinating new soldiers away from CFLRS to further down the line. Now the burden falls on trade schools and units to deal with troops who are inadequately prepared for the realities of military life.

The sky will not fall and our soldiers will still win wars but we just gave the units one more duty, do CFLRS's job.

Quote
I don't see the issue here.

Its the 21st century, i dont see the need to parade soldiers around like show horses.  ;D

Offline SentryMAn

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2011, 10:08:31 »
It's not just this single "issue" it is the idea that we need to keep making concessions for these kids.  I'm glad you're not seeing it in your neck of the woods but it is all adding up and creates a hell of a mess for the rest of us to clean up.  If I am going to be questioned by troops on my policies which are apparently counterpoised to this new secret CF leadership initiative (secret because I have received no indoctrination) than I don't want to be held accountable when they finally throw it all under the bus.  The instructors at BMQ are being put to task for taking such aggressive postures as putting their hands on their hips, or crossing their arms because they might intimidate the troops, and on the other end I'm getting harassment complaints because the Sergeants are "mean" (read: have expectations that the troops will listen and respond appropriately to direction).  I remember when a Section had one or two bad eggs, now I have a 50% problem.  It isn't everyone (I have some good kids), and it goes beyond cell phones and also speaks to the quality of  Jr leaders we are producing, our middle management etc.  I'm not saying I have anarchy or that I'm incapable of doing my job, in fact we've turned the issue on it's ear and some of my worst problems have become my most productive soldiers, however, it shouldn't be my job to teach the basics (if it is then give me more staff and I'll stand up a training section).  My organization is responsible for the maintenance of strategic communications infrastructure in Canada, it is hard and dangerous work sometimes, if the troops don't listen or decide the Sgt doesn't know what he's talking about and take their own "enlightened" path, then people could die.  It's not the policy itself we are concerned about, but the overall methodology.  I wish I had all the answers, but until then the beatings will only increase until morale improves.

Well put.
The CF's mandate of being a soldier first should not include things like Use of electronic communication devices outside of a radio and/or GPS unit.

But with all things in the CF, the CO will tell me what is acceptable and I shall enforce that policy and that will be the end of the argument.